Building an AMD 4800+ overclocked game/crunching machine

[Steve Lux]

Background: I want a second crunching machine, my son wants a super game machine. We think both of us can have it "our" way, but neither of us can justify the entire expense. The computer, when finished, will be for my son, but when he's not using it it will be Boinc crunching for me.

We intend to buy and assemble components and software for the purpose of overclocking this unit to reach near maximum capacity. I have been messing with computers since 1972 when I first got to play with a TTY terminal in the Franklin High School library that was linked to a bank in Portland, Oregon (USA). I'm not exactly unfamiliar with computers, but I have never done a total build, nor have I ever overclocked a system. My son has been messing with computers since he was an infant, sitting on my lap as I worked or played computer games. He has no experience building systems or overclocking either. We thought this would be a good project for the two of us to do together.

I have decided on the processor and ram, the remainder of the following hardware and software is still up for debate:

Processor: AMD 64 X2 4800+ dual core. Its native speed is 2.4 Ghz but I think it could be overclocked to 2.9Ghz and possibly 3.0Ghz with the right ram, cooling capacity and voltage control. Price from NewEgg is $630.00.

Motherboard: ASUS A8N-SLi Premium. It's an ATX form board that seems to be popular for AMD 64 X2 overclocking. One of my concerns here is the overclocking effects on the motherboard components. I don't know if there is a motherboard functional speed limit. I may have to look at higher speed 939 pin systems to see what is available. This board is available from NewEgg for $169.00.

Ram: Corsair 2GB (2ea 1GB sticks) PC4000 DDR DIMM memory kit. Again from NewEgg for $193.00.

OS: Microsoft Windows XP Professional Edition. I don't want to build a system and try to figure out a new OS (Linux or Xandros) at the same time, so I need to stick with MS products and limit my headaches. But, I need to know if the extra $225 or so for the X64 version is worth the money compared to the standard XP pro version. My gut tells me that for my purposes it's not worth the extra expense, but I'll wait on some more expert information before the buy.

Power Supply: Ultra / X-Finity / 600-Watt / ATX / Dual 80mm Fan / SATA-Ready / SLI Ready / Black / Power Supply. I'm thinking we'll need a large amount of juice to drive the video and OCing, so I'm looking at this system. http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1273341&Sku=ULT31848 TigerDirect for $90.00.

Case: My son has chosen the following: Thermaltake Silver Armor Aluminum Full-Tower ATX Case with 11 External Drive Bays, Clear Side, Front USB, Firewire and Audio Ports http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1389580&CatId=0 TigerDirect price is $180.00. If I can't cool some chips and boards in that aluminum moster it can't be done. I can see Alcoa's stock prices climbing now. Jeesh what a desk hog. Perhaps we should also order a dolly to move it with.

Video: Initially my son was looking at the NVIDEA XFX GeForce 6800 GS/256MB DDR3/PCI Express/SLI/DVI/VGA/TV-Out/Video card, but he may step up a bit since his old man is helping with the bill.

I'm still reviewing HHDs and CD/DVD drive/burners. Trying to find a "quiet" 10k rpm HDD. Also, I need reccomendations on a very good AMD 4800+ chip cooler.

After we get this puppy together and rated we will discuss overclocking in that topic.

[Empty_5oul]

it seems you want to really push the processor!
At those sorts of speeds i am sure you would need water cooling, or you will hit the maximum speeds from the teameratures you reach rather than the components themselves. Personally I have no experience with water cooling.
- The case has a few liquid cooling features so possibly you had thought of that already.


Trying to find a "quiet" 10k rpm HDD
If you go with that thermaltake case and use all the standard case fans and count the fan on the graphics card you will be looking at about 100dBA already. I wouldnt worry about the HD noise it will sort of be drowned out!
But i would recommend definatley going SATA, the speed increase still amazes me when copying larger files between my 2 Sata drives and 1 IDE drive.

For the benefits of XP64 i dont think that amout extra is worth it. Its personal choice but as its not main-stream yet (and doesnt have too many purpose built 64 bit products) I dont think it would be worth the money.

[Steve Lux]

Did the buy tonight from NewEgg:

Qty. Product Description Unit Price Total Price

1 CASE TT| VA8000SWA SIL RT - Retail Item #: N82E16811133155 $179.00 $179.00
1 MB ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe NF4SLI 939 - Retail Item #: N82E16813131568 $204.99 $204.99
1 @PSU COOLMAX|CW-650T 650W RT - Retail Item #: N82E16817159056 $139.99 $139.99
1 CPU AMD|ATHLON 64 X2 4800+ 939P R - Retail Item #: N82E16819103544 $630.00 $630.00
2 MEM 1Gx2|CORSAIR TWINX2048-4000PT R - Retail Item #: N82E16820145596 $193.00 $386.00
1 HD 320G|WD 7K 16M SATA2 WD3200KS % - OEM Item #: N82E16822136003 $130.00 $130.00
1 DVD BURN SAMSUNG|SH-S162L/BEBN BK % - OEM Item #: N82E16827151118 $49.99 $49.99
1 CPU LCOO|BIGWATER SE CL-W0005-01 RT - Retail Item #: N82E16835106063 $124.99 $124.99
1 MS WIN XP PRO X64 SINGLE PACK % - OEM Item #: N82E16837102065 $139.95 $139.95
1 Discount FOR 19-103-544&35-106-063 Item #: COM Â* $-10.00
Â* Subtotal: $1,974.91
Â* Tax: $0.00
Â* Shipping: $50.29
Â* Grand Total: $2,025.20

I forgot to talk to my son about the video card so had to do a second order:

1 VGA XFX 7900GTX 512MB PV-T71F-YDE9 - Retail Item #: N82E16814150136 $549.00 $549.00
Subtotal: $549.00
Tax: $0.00
Shipping: $5.09
Grand Total: $554.09

Two of the Corsair 1G ram sticks are for upgrading my AMD 3800+

One note of caution I have read about the water-based processor coolers; if the processors aren't kept working the coolers can cause condensation and eventual corrosion. For crunching this won't be an issue, but if a system is left idle it can be a concern.

Hey, with this (my 50th) post I have graduated to "Junior Member". Perhaps some day if I qualify to be a whore will you pay me to post?

[NVM]

jebus... :shock:

[Keith75]

Sorry to chime in after you ordered but I would highly recommend the Opteron 170 since it is cheaper, has 1MB L2 cache per core and easily overclocks to 2.8GHz on air.

Keith

[spikey_richie]

I have the same water cooling kit as you've ordered. It's very good, but the only thing I will say is that the flow rate is very low @ 90 litres per hour. They've just released a new system that runs at 400 litres per hour!

[mitro]

One note of caution I have read about the water-based processor coolers; if the processors aren't kept working the coolers can cause condensation and eventual corrosion. For crunching this won't be an issue, but if a system is left idle it can be a concern.
Thats not true in the case of plain watercooling. In order for condensation to form, the water would have to be considerably colder than the ambient temperature. Only running a water chiller will make that happen.

[Steve Lux]

I know there are several variables when it comes to condensation including the internal case temperature and dewpoint. Here in the south eastern USA the humidity tends to get fairly high, which means a higher dew point. This is why I didn't go for a more powerful water-based processor cooler. Admittedly the cooler capacity was a semi-informed guess on my part. The room the computer will be in is air conditioned of course, but the humidity removal of a room AC unit is limited.

Perhaps a different chip on another build? I'm not stuck to the 4800+, but it sure seems a good chip for what we are doing.

I'm expecting everything in by the weekend for a build with my oldest son. I haven't decided if I'll set him up with his own Boinc account or put the second system on mine.

[Keith75]

I am sure you will be happy with the 4800 Steve. The Opterons are just a really good bargain in that they have so much overclocking headroom and only run about $400 for the 170.

Keith

[Steve Lux]

I suppose I have to wonder why Mitro's 175 doesn't seem to crunch out the numbers that his 3800+'s do. I don't expect a 170 to perform as well or better than a 175. Shouldn't I expect that a 4800+ could perform as well or better than a 3800+?

Oh I know Mitro has maximized the capacity of his systems, but from what I see if properly set up a 4800+ should be capable of far more than a 170. I see his 3800+ systems leaving his 175 in the dust. Logic impells me to conclude that a 4800+ should be capable of far more than a 170.

Take a look at his systems:

http://www.boincsynergy.com/stats/boinc-stats.php?id=101035&project=eah (edit: When Mitro moves resources out of Einstein@Home this link may no longer be useful to illustrate my point)

I just look at the numbers and draw conclusions from what I see. I have no illusions that I can get a 4800+ to do what his 3800+'s are doing, not without learning a good bit more than I presently know, but I should be able to do pretty well.

[mitro]

How'd this become about me? :P

My Opty 175 is lagging behind my 3800's for one main reason. It's at my work and doesn't always have an internet connection, so sometimes it runs out of work. As far as what dual core will overclock higher than another is all a crapshoot. one week a certain batch of 170's may be golden and the next week its 3800's or 4400's. Both of my 3800's overclock higher than my much more expensive Opteron 175. Hopefully the 4800's are hitting this week. :)

I may have to get a 165 soon, as I hear the recent ones are getting around 2.8 on stock voltage in some cases.

[Jerod Vandehey]

Anyone know when AMD will re-structure their prices? I can never remember how they do it?

[Keith75]

I think the main attraction to the Opterons besides price is the fact that they have the large cache as well as running at lower voltages. Most people I have talked to can get somewhere between 2.4 and 2.5 GHz from a 170 with stock voltage and factory heatsink.

Strangely my Opteron 170 is running 100 MHz slower than my 3700+, both with 1 MB cache, yet it is getting the same integer and floating point speeds.

Not sure how accurate the BOINC benchmarks are but to compare machines they should work ok. My 3700 isn't running on there at the moment but it was getting the same numbers within about 20 pts.

http://climateapps2.oucs.ox.ac.uk/cpdnboinc/show_host_detail.php?hostid=163742

Here is a comparison of his machines speed.

http://bbc.cpdn.org/hosts_user.php?userid=92778&show_all=1

Keith

[Steve Lux]

Got my new system's components in late the morning. I have put the system together and it posted the first try. Due to the water-cooled block on the processor it took me a few minutes to realize why I got a CPU fan error. I just went into the BIOS and disabled the CPU fan. Everything seems to be working well. At present I am formatting my HDD. Next I'll install the OS. After that will be some tests and some minor OC'ing. Then I'll install a network card and try going online for some Boincing.

Just in time too. In Predictor the British are coming, the British are coming.

[Nflight]

Anyone know when AMD will re-structure their prices? I can never remember how they do it?

You know AMD is as finicky as a cat, turning its nose up at every inconvenience or untasty treat you thought was for dinner. The prices are just as mysterious, they reduce them about every 3 to 4 months by 10%, but just when you think the next time they reduce the price, they discontinue the item your after. Please don't wait too long or you will miss out on your advantage.




Jim Thome 1st base avg .379

[Steve Lux]

Got my just-built 4800+ system up and running on Predictor. I'll start tweaking the OC tomorrow. My first complete build - it's been interesting.

[Steve Lux]

Just replaced my two 512k (PC3200U) ram sticks with two 1 Gig (PC4000) sticks in my AMD 3800+ that I'm using for Predictor. We'll see if it helps.

Also, I think I'll put the stock cooler that came with the 4800+ on this 3800+, if it will fit. It's a better fan-based cooler, but they didn't leave much room in this multimedia HP and I need to pick up more tie-wraps. They didn't do any useful wire routing in this thing. The main bundles of wires were all over the ram sticks.

I've had this HP since February and this was the first time I have opened the case on it. It needed to be cleaned anyhow.

[Keith75]

What kind of cooler did you put on the 4800? I am anxious to hear about your overclocking.

Keith

[Steve Lux]

I installed a Thermaltake Bigwater SE CL-W0005-01 RT 12cm liquid cooling system. I didn't intend to do any major overclocking so I wasn't looking for the most powerful cooler available, but I did want something to remove most of the heat generated by the processor out of the case, not just mix more hot air around inside the case.

Since my son's case has a plexiglass viewing panel on the one side the lights from the cooling kit are aesthetically pleasing to him.

The one thing I don't like about this particular cooling system is the radiator fan control. The fan speed is controlled manually by a knob mounted into one of the slots on the back of the computer. How stupid is that? I would prefer the fan's speed be controlled by the motherboard's CPU fan circuit. I can fix this by modifying the wiring, but these guys should have been smarter than this. Forcing you to waste a slot for a pot knob, forcing you to monitor CPU and mobo temperatures and forcing you to assure access to the back of your system because you must manually regulate the fan speed as the system needs it is moronic. I don't know how much they paid the engineer that made this decision but s/he ought to have their head examined for holes.

Once I modify the wiring so that the fan speed is automatically controlled by CPU temperatures (via the CPU fan plug) it'll be a good cooling system. After all, computers are supposed to be doing stuff for us, not us doing stuff for them (other than regular maintenance).

[Steve Lux]

Oh, in case you didn't see it before, my AMD 4800+ is dead. The BIOS won't POST (Power On Self Test). I checked all of the feeds and connectors from the power supply and everything is within spec. The BIOS chip get's warm but it's not even trying to POST. Since I can't get past the BIOS obviously it won't boot up. I've tried resetting the BIOS to default, several times, but this dead horse just don't ride.

I've got an e-mail in to ASUS about it. Meanwhile I've ordered another board that should be here on Friday.

[Keith75]

Sorry to hear that. Sure can be frustrating. I have been pretty luck over all but I have had a dead MOBO and also had a 3700 that had a bad memory controller. Everything worked fine as long as you only put memory in slot #1. Anywhere else or add another stick and no Post. After eliminating everything else it turned out to be the chip. AMD was notified and they had me a new one in just under 7 days.

Keith

[Steve Lux]

I replaced the motherboard on my 4800+ system. The directions stated that the BIOS fan was optional. Apparently it isn't. It seems that inflection and syntax are lost in the translation. The system is back up and running, but now it has other problems.

I think I have determined what is causing problems with my 4800+ system. I installed Windoz's XP 64 Pro edition because of its supposed design for advanced math processing on 64 bit capable systems. Googling around I find that it has quite a few compatability issues. Anyhow, daily I have multiple WU's getting "stuck" for hours at a time and the system automatically re-boots a couple of times a day. Consequently I think this system is running at about 60% capacity.

The way this computer is acting tells me that something's not right with this OS. Last night I ordered the standard Win XP Pro OS. I'll do an OS reinstall this weekend. After I get this system stable then I'll feel comfortable with some OC'ing. I'm expecting to get more than 1000 credits a day out of this system without any drastic OC'ing.

[Evil-Dragon]

I was going to put on Windows 64 bit Edition onto my main rig... kinda glad I didn't really. You'd be better off sticking to 32 bit edition until Vista is done, since it should be better supported by manufacturers for 64 bit.

My advice, wipe, reinstall with Windows XP 32bit for the meantime. You won't be gaining any great leaps and bounds with 64bit anyway (not at the moment)

[Steve Lux]

I upped the processor voltage last night a bit just to see if it would have any effect and the 4800+ hadn't hiccuped all night. After I get home from work I'll make a determination if this system can handle a little OCing. That may be my project for Sunday (the one day a week I don't have to work). I may simply have a crappy processor that can't handle the standard BIOS OC of 10% without the extra millivolts.

[Brucifer]

Don't go blaming XP-64. It is a good windows implementation. Your lockups, etc., are either driver issues or mobo/cpu/mem. My XP-64s on dual cores run just great. My XP-64 stuff is the most painless association that I've ever had with windows.

You might try loading up the 64-bit version of Suse and see how that runs, and see if you are still getting lockups

While the clients are primarily 32-bit for all the projects out there, it is still better to try and stay with a 64-bit O/S if possible, even for running 32-bit clients.


Myself, I'm a linux freak. I keep as minimal on windows as possible. :) But I am impressed with XP-64 though.

[Steve Lux]

I just replaced the 64 bit version of Win XP on my AMD 4800+ with the standard Win XP. So far so good. I just could not get the 4800+ system to stablize in any reliable way.

On problem though; how do I get the BOINC listing to show them as the same system after I have replaced the OS? In my case the computer listed under me #246686 is actually computer #239825.

The difference is that I have replaced the operating system. Hopefully with something a bit more stable. If I can make it 24 hours without it locking up one of the cores that will be an improvement.

[Nflight]

I believe you can merge the two computers, you will only be able to do this under your preferences though. I think it is under your account info through the title page of the project your working on. There you can veiw and merge the two I hope!

[Steve Lux]

Ah, it won't let me merge the hosts because I named the computer differently when I installed the new OS. Aparently hosts have to have the same name to be merged.

Hm... I wonder if I buy a 4800+ cpu and put it in my 3800+ system if Boinc will recognize the difference (not that I actually plan to do that, but I do wonder).

[Empty_5oul]

i think it would make a new host.

unless you keep the same everything and just downgrade the processor. As soon as it benchmarks itself it will realise the new processor. You may get a day on the 4800 scores though!