A64 Performance

[Keith75]

Ok, I was thinking yesterday this new A64 was flying along doing over 200 WU a day. Well, it isn't I somehow had it and another machine with the same node number. So when I get a solid number on how many it does in a day now that I have it by itself I will let everyone know.

Keith

[BC]

Keith,
Don't feel bad, I did similar..... I was running BOTH Boinc-Preditor and D2OL simultaneously.

I got 137 Candidates from D2OL at 1d 0h 26m, and turned in 42 WU's on Predictor.

Either way you look at it, we're both screaming along!

I'm going to split things here... and fix the error.... and rerun for a 24 or 36 hr period to ensure clean results.


As for what to do with the A64... please see my post in "A64 on the way" about what I did to OC to +12% with ZERO problems / effort.


BC.

[Keith75]

I have upped my FSB to 206 which puts me at a clock speed of 2266MHz. My RAM is PC3200 running at CAS 2-3-3-10. The VCore is at 1.5v and everything seems very stable including Prime 95. I think I am going to leave it here for now. I am very happy with how stable and OC friendly these seem to be.

Keith

[BC]

Keith,

Good job! Keep turning!!!! :D

Which PC3200 RAM do you have? CL2 or CL3? looks like you have 3, but are tweaking into something inbetween?

Which model A64 do you have? (3200+ .... CPU model #... ... 4AX,
or a (.......... 5AP) ?

if you are 206 FSB and getting 2266... that sounds like 11:1 which is
the NewCastle. You can safely take that puppy up to 210 with no
problems, but back down to CL2.5 .... NewCastle's standard Vcore is
1.55... so I'm curious why you are running at 1.5?
AMD did a test run of NewCastles locked down to 2400 Mhz and called
them model # that ends in '4AX'.

(FYI: Corsair and Kingston both say that CL2 is 'supported' and
and will operate as if 2.5 at that speed )

Do you have the program Crystal CPUID (or an equivalent) that will
tell you the CPU multiplier and CPU model ID? a 512K L2 3200+ is
a NewCastle (4AX) and a 1MB L2 Cache is the Clawhammer (5AP).



I have tested Kingston "Valueram" CL3 PC3200 (which is CHEAP & SLOW) and got up to 2.37 Ghz with no problem.... I do have the Thermal-Take cooler for Opteron and used Artic Silver 5 compound.

I've played some bios clock-locking games with both the CL2 and CL3 for both 4ax and 5ap processors all the way up to their max.

Right now, this machine is running 2.25 Ghz == 2304 Mhz.. and I'm fine.
and this is the Claw... My FSB is 220... I dont understand why the ASUS
MB seems to add .05 to everything, but it has consistently

Any clues?

Sorry for all the questions intermixed with ideas.... I'm flipping
through my notes here as I go. I personally think, if you have
the cooling (45C is normal), you can run stable at 2365 Mhz (2.31)..
That is how the other machine is running now and it's at 210 FSB CL3.

BC


BC

[Keith75]

Here is what is on the back of the CPU:

ADA3200AEP4AX
CBASC 0415XPMW
9545044D40094

My RAM is one stick of OCZ and one stick of Corsair. Both are rated for CL 2. I feel confident I can up the speed some more without relaxing them down to CL 2.5. As for the voltage being 1.5 not 1.55, I am not sure. That is what it was when I got it and I haven't changed it. I thought that was normal for the chips. Asus, which I like alot, seems to have alot of issues. I had an nForce 2 400 board and it would overvolt the CPU quite a bit and it would also say the chip was running about 5-6 deg. cooler than it actually was. It also wasn't too good about keeping time accurrately. I just checked and mine is designed to run at 1.50 Vcore. This is where I looked:

http://www.thedigerati.us/info/amdcpuchart.html

Keith

[BC]

Keith,
Ok, I have some possible items of help... You and I have experienced
the same thing. I've done this to both the 5AP and 4AX....(soon to
be something else MUCH faster, sempron related)

1. Go to the Asus site... Get the Asus probe (latest version)
www.asus.com.tw

2. Get the latest Asus Update (5.25 or 5.28???). Your BIOS, like mine,
is probably/ mine was, 2 revs behind and did NOT report correctly.

3. Get all three of them installed. (probe, update and bios).

4. Your new bios will be flashed in from the asus updater over
the internet. I would advise (as always) saving the existing
bios before flashing up. You can save a copy of the existing
bios from inside the updater while your OS is running..as well
as update while running.

5. After reset, it will properly detect the NewCastle (4AX) and
set it automatically for 1.55 volts

6. Given you have CL2, I agree you don't have to back down to
CL 2.5. I stand corrected.

7. Corsair specs DDR voltage of 2.75..... the default in ASUS is 2.6.
(you probably will have to set that manually @ 2.7), but check what
OCZ wants. I have never mixed vendors for RAM. You may have
to decide on running a bit low, but that's ok, I am at 2.7 and fine.



8. Also lock your CPU-Mem clock at 1:1.... and set the FSB to 200.
CPU MEM locking involves both (as implied) the "1:1" and setting
the CPU speed limit to the advertized 2200.

I've discovered this somehow get's the BIOS to trust you, and the
FSB speed becomes the single control point.

Reset your FSB to 200 and all mem to 'auto' (except voltage).
This will give you a nice stable base to start from. You should have
2.25G reported as system speed. (to CPU-mem lock in the new
BIOS, you have to change 'auto' to 'limit' and set it at 1:1 (DDR400)

9. Run some stress testing on it... Like CrystalMark09.... You should
get an FPU score of 10,000 +/-....

10. From there, if you have the graphics card, hyper transport, etc &
cooling, take it up to 210. Keeeping in mind that 45C is NORMAL!
Under 100% sustained load, you can expect it to creep a bit to
46-ish depending on your cooling. I found that open air or
84 CFM through the fins didn't make much difference... It does
run warmer (the leakage current in the core is that high
compared to the older 3200+'s). Either way, it will be stable.

For reference, my 9800 XT runs at 67C typical and has a normal
operating range of 59C -> 128C...

11. If EVERYTHING is stable... then I would not exceed 220 FSB as it
just stresses the CPU and forces it to clamp at 2.37G (2426 mhz).
Your RAM will have plenty of bandwidth, as will the AGP channel,
and the Hypertransport to the SB.

12. Word of caution... Depending on how your graphics card is:
I would first limit the AGP to 4x max in BIOS. I found that the
8X load on the ASUS/Via chipset was more than single channel
memory really did well with at this speed. My Radeon 9800
could starve the CPU. If you do the math, it's obvious., you
are trying to pull close to 2.4 GB/sec out of an overclocked 1.6
base design.... LOL


If you use CrystalMark09 (2004).... the FPU test @210 will give you
from 9700+ to 10800+ depending on what's going on.



The kicker here is heat, cooling, and power supply regulation.
everything i hve says 1.55 V core. Even the Claw auto increases
to 1.55 core at 220 FSB with the MEM-CPU lock setup.

My recommendation is not to let it get over 50C for very long.
(if you see 49C and it's not stable... back off)... I know it's good
for 65C, but you will wear out the transistor junctions faster for
no real good reason.

As a LAST DITCH EFFORT... you CAN lower the multiplier on the
4AX.... If you do, take it back to the standard 10. 10.5 causes
timing delays during cache flush. Clearly not what anyone wants.

If you want / need exact stuff on the locking trick for the ASUS bios,
let me know.... It took me 2-3 days to figure out how to get both
machines completely under my control. After that, it's "dial a speed'.

Also, if you want help with the CrystalMark or CrystalCPUid, let me
know... I got both on the web and they are right on the button.
They are standard tools around here for public use.

Hope this all helps and hope the step-by-step wasn't over simplifying,
I was just reading from my notebook.

PM or email me if you wish.

BC.

PS: My next trick is the 'Pro' Dual Channel chipset. I'm waiting
for the board now.

[Keith75]

My Asus board is an XP model that has a 2500 in it. My A64 is using an MSI board. They have a bug right now with it that shows the CPU temp as idling at 63 deg and full load at 71 deg. They hope to have this fixed soon and I was hoping that after they did I could get a better handle on how much my OCing was heating things up. Right now I can't trust the readings.

Keith

[BC]

Keith,
If you can spare the few $$... get the Thermal-Take A1357 fan.
It's bright orange, has a temp probe and a speed dial.

Skip the speed dial part, use the temp probe only.

What I did was mount that as my main CPU heat exhaust fan, with
the temp probe directly at the center base of the heatsink.

Since the T-couple is standard... you can plug it into a bunch of
different temp displays... I have another t-couple running my
front display. (yes, 2 in the heat sync)...

The difference between die temp and sink temp (if you have it in the
center (least air disturbance) AND in contact with the base of the
sink is only 3-4C if you have a good compound. Based on
what you are doing, i would say you most CERTAINLY do have good
cooling compound...

For reference... the T-Take fan is about $13.. (cheaper mail order).
Operating specs are:
1300rpm @ 20C = 20.55 CFM
4800rpm @ 50C = 75.70 CFM (this is max, and still quiet)

You can hear it spool up and down based on load if you pay attention.

Does that help?



BC.

Personal note: 2 of these are all I need to cool this one overclocked clawhammer I have. 6 HD's, 2 burners, 9800, etc, etc as I posted before. Only other T-Take in there is the CPU cooler. Oh, and I added
standard filters to the air inlet points to keep the dust bunnies at a minimum.

If you'ld like a pic of the internals for reference.. hollar.. you might get a laugh out of 15 lbs of crap in a 10 lb pail..... LOL

[Keith75]

I will get one of those. My case has seven fans counting the power supplies. It is a Thermaltake Xaser III. I have a heat sensor with a readout on the front but I haven't mounted it anywhere yet. I am planning on doing that. I will make a trip to the computer store this weekend and pick up one of those fans you mentioned. I really need to get filters on it too since dust is always a problem. Love to see pics.

Keith

[em99010pepe]

Could you specify the positions of all that seven funs? Thanks.

[Keith75]

Sure, two in the front of the case towards the bottom, two in the rear, two in the power supply and one in the side over the processor.

Keith

[em99010pepe]

Keith75,

Do you have the computer in your room? Is it noisy?

[Keith75]

Yes, it is in my room. Before I got my new chip and motherboard it was really bad. I had a Volcano 11+ on my 2500 and it was way too noisy. I am now using the stock cooler on the A64 and it is pretty quiet. The case fans run at low speed so they don't cause much noise. I love it. It is probably twice as loud as a regualr case with one or two fans but it isn't the kind of sound that bothers you. Just faint background noise.

Keith

[BC]

For what it's worth:
I have the filters on the air intakes. I can show you pics of those too.
These are really nice filters (cheap too)... the base of the filter screws
in with the mounting of the fan. The mesh lays in a 'tray'. and then
simple cover snaps over it all hiding the screws and making it look
professional. The casing and filter are black so it's very non-offensive.

If you would like, I can post (ASSUMING my dsl is back up) a url
to a pic of the inside... [[ at work right now, waiting for assignment,
and the dsl is being worked on. last word was someone took out
the junction box down the street and snipped major trunks ]]

PLEASE promise not to laugh at how messy it is or how much 'junk'
is in there... the contents are always changing.. LOL

I did forget to mention that I have the cooling fan in the supply. I never
count that as it's primarily to cool the supply. I do have, as a standby,
a fan at the top of the chassis (90mm) and a fan in the front (120mm)
which are also standby. They can be turned on when the A/C fails to
keep things in operation. For extreme emergencies (like cpu cooler
failure... I have a 28mm tornado blower (85+ CFM) aimed right at
the cpu.

So, counting everything (including CPU cooling fan)... I have.

PS fan, 2 exhaust fans, 1 top fan, 1 front fan, and 1 side fan (28),
and CPU cooler fan..... total = 7, with 4 in normal operation; 3 as
standby.

I am considering setting things up so that instead of using just the power supply temp sensor to trigger the turn-on of the emergency fans, I'm thinking about using a simple 2-diode/resistor arrangement that would allow any thermal condition triggered by the MB or PS to turn on the emergency fans. One of these days, I'll just dig the parts out of the
box and solder it up.

My computers are in my room and are quiet. If you turn on the TV or even watch a DVD on the PC, you can't hear a thing UNLESS the Tornado fan is running at max (6500 RPM). The T-Take fans are silent at full speed ****IF**** you cut out the grill work (drilled holes) on the back of the case... That's the trick there... zero air flow resistance outbound.


Let me know what pictures you all would like to see (if any) and I will shoot & post.


BC

[BC]

Keith & all,

I dug into the Thermal-take site.... and found the VENUS series.

That is what I use.. Also take into consideration that I use Artic Silver 5 (which is WAY better than their other products, but does take up to 200 hours to 'cure'. more info about AS-5 on their site).

My specific cooler looks like the A1838, but is taller w/ red-orange color fan blades. I want to say A8901 or A8801.... I will find the package and let you know.

I do know my package said Silent Boost K8+ or something like that... there was a DEFINATE indication of it being more than the norm..... PLUS my fan blades are red/orange... not black. It is definately silent at full speed though!!!

I also found a matching K7 series... but again, no 'red/orange' blades or the 'plus' designation... I know it's there somewhere.


Sorry for forgetting this in the previous post, just found the info now.

BC

[BC]

As I said earlier today, I have a 120 mm fan on the front side of the
chassis.

From my experience, SUNON makes an excellent 12v, ball bearing, low rpm, high volume fan, and QUIET for the price.... Here is the link to the Sunon site for you to see and evaluate.

http://www.sunon.com.tw/products/pdf/dc-fan/general.pdf
(page 8 of this pdf explains how they encode their product numbers)

The only thing NOT listed in this link is the complete KDE series, just the older products.

In the Sunon line, like everyone else, they have 3 basic types for PCs.... the MOST important part of the number is the last digit before the '-'

If you have a case with a restricted / difficult air flow path, you will want a fan capable of the higher pressure to 'blow by' (or 'suck by') what's in its way.

I use both the 'B1-' and 'B3-' series fans depending on the case air flow and amount of PCI cards & disks it's trying to blow through -OR- if it is simply an exhaust fan. I tend to use the higher pressure fans when blowing in (since I am pulling through a filter) and the lower pressure fans for exhaust (where there are NO obstructions).

Cases are usually designed for 30mm or 40mm of space between the front face and the drive... this is what we have to work with.

Most of the deeper (20 inch) cases have JUST enough room for the 38mm fans. the fit is tight. Best technique is to do this before drives are mounted and then insert the fan through the drive mount area. The 25mm fans will slide in the side with drives already mounted.

In either case... once you have mounted the fan and filter/grill... seal off all air leakage around the fan and surrounding framework for inlet fans.


I have a Sunon, KDE1212PMB3-6A... This one runs at a 2400 RPM, 35 dBA noise level, 120x120x38 , and 84 CFM. This is a typical exhaust fan.

My other fans are the KD series... B1 fans @ similar speed, noise, higher pressure, lower volume (that's the trade off) and are primarily INPUT fans.


I'm not trying to turn this into rocket science as it sure looks.... just share what I have used in various case designs, given the the amount of heat...(some cases have 2 power supplies).

Like any fan, larger size usually means lower RPM at same or more CFM, but you sometimes lose pressure.



My master rule is to Pressurize the case through filtered air first.... then exhaust it where I want. That has never failed. Just remember to push in a little more air than you are going to pull out and all will be fine.

One example I can give (US Postal Service) is the original Athlon 1200MP (A4 and A6) was safe to operate up to 122F. My customer required an ambient air temp of 100-110F. That gave me only 10F to use to cool EVERYTHING, knowing that air cooling is usually in the 15F range across the heatsink alone, I made up the difference in volume. The result was a 118-120F max CPU temp and none of them have failed yet.


Hope this helps. Given the new processors and the time it will take for the everyone to learn how to cool them, *WE* have to deal with it....
So, here is one of the things in my bag of tricks.

BC.

[em99010pepe]

BC,

Each time you write here is a lesson to me. Thanks teacher.

[BC]

Thank you and you (EVERYONE) is welcome to anything I know. I don't get much feedback other than 'you talk too much' ... LOL.



To be totally candid, I have always wanted to teach.

When I saw that todays graduates are highly skilled in certain areas and concepts I have trouble grasping at first, almost all of them lack the basics of 'how does it work inside the computer'. Ask what to do when the program runs slow? The answer you get is " Buy a faster processor, bigger disk, or more ram." In my opinion, although the techniques of software development and the things we are capable of have grown exponentially in magnitude, the knowledge of how the electronics work has fallen at a similar rate.

If this continues, the art of building a machine will soon be lost. only those of us who play with it all the time will be left. What's worse, only us "Dinosaurs" remember how to keep those old monsters cool...

It's time to pass the knowledge.... Time for the next generation to take what we know and build on it.... make it better.... that is my wish / goal / desire.

To finish this little comment, as soon as I can complete my teaching credentials, I will teach. I have been extended an open invitation to Dartmouth, as well as a few other good schools.

Question is: Should I stay here and advance the science, or step over to the academic world and reseed the knowledge.

I ask you.... Given what you have seen since I joined a few days ago, would you sign up for my classes at a University???

** EDIT ** "..... Or run the other direction??? lol *END EDIT


BC

[em99010pepe]

I don't get much feedback other than 'you talk too much' ... LOL.

Try to write in a simple way.




Question is: Should I stay here and advance the science, or step over to the academic world and reseed the knowledge.


If you have passion when teaching just go for it.




I ask you.... Given what you have seen since I joined a few days ago, would you sign up for my classes at a University???

** EDIT ** "..... Or run the other direction??? lol *END EDIT

BC

No because I'm getting here free lessons!

[WienerDog]

ya BC rock on :lol:
heh i know just enuff about computers that i can mess one up really fast :roll: so i read and try to learn. and its nice to have some one just "talk too much" rather than talk down. =D>

[Beerknurd]

I have absolutely no idea what anyone is talking about.... I don't even have an amd processor, therefor I have no idea what an A64 is. All I know is Pentium. I would like to have an amd processor, because I hear yall talk about how good they are. I have one of the fastest processors on the market, 3.4 ghtz with HT technology. There are only 3 pentium processors on the market that are faster than mine, 3.2 extreme, 3.4 extreme, and they just released a 3.6. I enjoy helping out because I have been on a couple of teams and you guys really care about what yall are doing and have alot of teamwork. So even though I don't know half... who am I kidding 3/4 of what yall are saying I still am honored to be on the team.

[BC]

I have absolutely no idea what anyone is talking about.... I don't even have an amd processor, therefor I have no idea what an A64 is. All I know is Pentium. I would like to have an amd processor, because I hear yall talk about how good they are. I have one of the fastest processors on the market, 3.4 ghtz with HT technology. There are only 3 pentium processors on the market that are faster than mine, 3.2 extreme, 3.4 extreme, and they just released a 3.6. I enjoy helping out because I have been on a couple of teams and you guys really care about what yall are doing and have alot of teamwork. So even though I don't know half... who am I kidding 3/4 of what yall are saying I still am honored to be on the team.

Beer,
To put things in perspective... here's the basics..

a) Intel chips take 6 or 8 'clock cycles' per instruction to execute (that's an actual 'add' or 'multiply'). AMD only needs 4. Both companies add 1 cycle for the processor to reset & fetch & do internal housekeeping. The math results in Intel needs multiple of 9 (or 3 since 3 is the prime #) and AMD runs on multiples of 5 (already a prime #). So simply forget Megahertz or Gigahertz in figuring performance. Use the number to help do the proper math for buying parts.

b)
AMD started with a quad bus architecture in the athlon 1200.. It also had 3 8086 instruction decoders and 128K L1 cache (64k inst / 64k data) and 512K of L2 cache and you could run TWO of them (the MP version) on DDR 266 memory with no problems.... By comparison, at the same time Intel had the P4 1.7 with 1 8086 instruction decoder, 1 internal bus, 8k of data cache and a 'fancy' 20k of 'micro instruction' cache. It also required a 400Mhz RAMBUS to keep the processor from starving for data or instructions.

FYI 20k Microinstruction cache is meaningless because it deals with the internal execution of an instruction... it has NOTHING to do with your program UNLESS you execute the exact same 'add' or 'multiply' or whatever over and over.


So, you ask........ Why the reason for the vast difference? AMD knows how to make more efficient circuits... there are fewer transistors internally and the logic needed is much simpler. Intel had to give up the cache because it would not fit on the chip... period. The Intel P4 power (heat) rating was originally "79 watts (typical)"... notice it didn't say "Max" ??? The AMD Athlon as "54-55 (i forget the #) MAX"... BIG difference.

RAMBUS is fast ***IF*** you are doing sequential memory access ONLY. A normal computer, running multiple programs (like windows) still starves on Rambus. I will share the internals of Rambus if you like.


b)
Intel finally figured out how to get away from Rambus and use a different chipset (north & south bridge). They can now use cheaper, more efficient memory by going back to their Pentium III design and combining its technology into the P4. This is now the P4A and P4B series.

Again, FYI: The P-III at 1.0 Ghz could outrun a P4 at 1.7. When I benchmarked two P3's at 1.0 Ghz (dual cpu mode), they both ran fine... dual P4s had NO performance gain.... Rambus and even the new memory chipset could not feed it fast enough.


c)
Now, skip forward into the Pentium HT's and Athlon XPs....


The HT is a dual bus (they tried to mimmick AMDs design of quad) but could only get 1 more bus on the chip. The XP was an outright improvement over the original Athlon design... The circuits were smaller AND engineering figured out how to keep the cache from buring up.. (Yes, guys... that is what happened... the first athlons were supposed to be 128/128 L1, 512k L2 cache, but the heat was too much and it melted down)

So, now we have HT's... trying to keep the CPU 100% busy, but still missing essential pieces (8086 decoders and an output data bus *AND* cache.. the processor sits and 'spins', looking busy 100% busy, waiting for memory or something else). The XP internally got smaller, allowing it to go faster. There are other changes in the XP, but not worth mentioning right now.


d)
Where do we stand today? Intel bought the DEC Alpha chip and created the IA-32/64... A design that is 15+ years old at least. It is entirely different and not compatible in any way with Pentium. You know it as Xeon. zero cross compatibility.

AMD pulled the same trick as another company did 20 years ago when going from 16 to 32 bits... they put BOTH on the chip because there was room. This is why the Athlon64 runs in both 32 and 64 bit worlds.

What about clock speeds & all that? the math is simple... the math is 5/3. that is 1.6... this is telling you that AMD is 1.6x better at doing the same thing as Intel in the 32 bit world.

The Athlon64 3200+..... runs at 2.0Ghz.... 2.0 x 1.6 = 3200... Presto!

e)
Now, there is one fundamental thing left... Memory.... and that is based totally on this 5 vs 9 (or 5 vs 3) ratio.

AMD decided to go with DDR-400... so 5 became 10.... 200FSB uses DDR 400 (5x2 and 200x2)..... 200 FSB x 10 (AMDs magic number) = 2.0 Ghz.

Intel does the exact same thing... take a DDR 333 on a Pentium 4b with a 533 FSB... watch the math and you will laugh. The only difference is intel has to play with both the numbers 9 AND 3 because they still think of 133 in their heads (that's why the P3 w/ DDR-266 is so fast). NOW, take 266*2 and you get 533... PRESTO again!

In *MY* opinion, Intel has not yet learned how to make it better, just emphasized on making it smaller & faster. The original design is still there with more *stuff* piled on.

(( side note: The first 80286, 80386 and 80486 burned up because of heat! ))


back to AMD. AMD stays at 10... but we have all found that we can use '5' when we want to. But that is where DDR-400 came from...

The Athlon64s simply cut 400FSB back to 200 (and grab twice as much).. so they grab the same amount as an FSB 400. They do it as 2x2x200.

If you have heard of 'dual channel'... now you can take out one of those '2x' and that is why they are so fast... 2 seperate channels at the same time.

I will stop here... Hope this helps. I'm sure it'll lead to questions about why DDR-333 works , etc etc.... (answer about DDR-333... usually CL2.5, it works because the PCI bus is 33mhz or AGP is 66... 333/5 = 66. 333/10 = 33.. presto) Quiz: what XP processors like DDR-333, what is their REAL frequency and what is the math. LOL


F)
Last, BUT BY FAR LEAST... Beerknurd, you want to learn... you've got my support... Learn and grow with us.. and as your Intels need replacing, you know what to buy. :)


BC

[Beerknurd]

:shock: That was the most informative answer I have ever heard. I'm not worthy!!!! You are a computer genius. You have information ooozing out of your pores. Very impressive.

:notworthy: I bow to you.

[Keith75]

Wow BC, you must love to type. :lol: Anyway, maybe you can answer a question I have. If you did in the previous post forgive me cause I missed it or didn't understand it. LOL Why are the Intels memory running Quad Pumped while the AMDs run just Double speed. If Quad pumping works so well why wouldn't AMD use it?

Keith

[BC]

Beer,
Please don't bow... I'm not worthy of such..

I'm just sharing 25+ years of experience. I used to wire backplanes
together to make computers bigger and used to change the microcode
chips to change the processor type... (yes we used to do that stuff).

BC.

[em99010pepe]

I think the administrators should create a doubts room called:

"Take your doubts with BC"

Your are amazing.

[BC]

Wow BC, you must love to type. :lol: Anyway, maybe you can answer a question I have. If you did in the previous post forgive me cause I missed it or didn't understand it. LOL Why are the Intels memory running Quad Pumped while the AMDs run just Double speed. If Quad pumping works so well why wouldn't AMD use it?

Keith

I dont' realy love to type... it takes forever to fix the typos (spinal injury here that affects arms), and voice synth isn't reliable yet. As far as technology and architectures go it's my job... I am a computer engineer... i can hook up a logic analyzer or pull up the software debugger. That is how I was trained.

( Per the Intel site, and the P4 with HT Extreme with 2MB L3 cache )
800 MHz, 533 MHz or 400 MHz System Bus
In the Pentium 4 processor with 800 MHz system bus, the bus supports high performance by delivering up to 6.4 GB of data-per-second into and out of the processor. This is accomplished through a physical signaling scheme of quad-pumping the data transfers over a 200 MHz clocked system bus and a buffering scheme allowing for sustained 800 MHz data transfers. The same quad-pumping of data is true for Pentium 4 processors with 533 MHz system bus (4.2 GB data-per-second with a 133 MHz clocked system bus) and Pentium 4 processors with 400 MHz system bus (3.2 GB data-per-second with a 100 MHz clocked system bus). This compares to 1.06 GB/s delivered on the Pentium® III processor's 133 MHz system bus.

Also note,,, from the same page:

Level 1 Execution Trace Cache
The 90 nm Pentium 4 processor features 16-KB data cache compared to 8-KB on the 0.13 micron

Also on the same page... the L2 cache is:
Non-Blocking, full speed, on-die level 2 cache
8-way set associativity
256-bit data bus to the level 2 cache
Data clocked into and out of the cache every clock cycle

(( intel had to unveil its .090 technology now... AMD is waiting until .065 is ready))

Now, the simple AMD answer....

AMD64 939pin 130nm (which *can* be as memory thirsty as a pentium HT Extreme and up) but uses industry standard Hypertransport technology ( http://www.hypertransport.org ) instead of L3 cache and Quad pumping at the moment.


The specs for Hypertransport are:
Feature/Function
HyperTransport Technology
Bus Type Dual, unidirectional, point-to-point links
Link Width 2, 4, 8, 16, or 32 bits
Protocol Packet-based, with packets in multiples of four bytes (32 bits)
Bandwidth
(Each Direction) 100 MBytes to 11.2 GB/sec.
Data Throughput Up to 22.4 Gigabytes/sec.
Signaling 1.2-V Low-Voltage Differential Signaling (LVDS) with a 100-ohm differential impedance
Multiprocessing Support Yes
Memory Model Coherent and non-coherent

1.2 LVDS is your quad pump
(( Athlon64's and up aleady have his capability ))


Notice that AMD is not talking 256 bits yet? but my previous posts said 512/1024??? , nor am I talking L3 cache which CAN be predictive and access memory every cycle *If* it wants to starve the rest.

Now, who's faster? Intel by forcing "Up to 6.4GB/sec" just to keep it running or AMD by having the architecture that is industry standard that goes above that (up to 22.4GB) and not needing all that for the processor.... ALSO, AMD isn't using a L3 cache yet either..... Intel is pretty desperate if they must resort to quad channel equivalent (400x2x4) to keep up.

One last little piece of info.... Intel is running Quad at 32 bits.... AMD is running Dual at 64 bits.... Notice I didn't say anythng about the new AMD processors either (next month)...... Yet the Intel P4 HT Extreme is their best....

Please forgive what looks like anti-Intel bias... but this P4 Ht Extreme is their latest, you have not seen AMD's matching processor yet. I have also commented on the fact that Intel appears to build more on top of what they already have instead of fixing the core....

AMD is not like that.... Please, just sit back, watch and keep that Hypertransport in mind please. Keep 939 pin packages in mind (the 3800+ is just the initial step. Sempron (and immediate successors) in mind...... AMD is VERY VERY deliberate in what they are doing right now. The steps are very logical and there is a deliberate migration of technology.... not a 'more on top of the old same stuff'.

I will make you a bet.... I bet we see 1024bit, quad core, 3.2 - 4.0 Ghz processors and busses on AMD before we see such animals on Intel. Deal??? LOL

BC.


PS: apologize for typos... had a tough day.

[BC]

Ok.. Here they are... on a web page.. (thumbnails included)

You can see the construction technique.....

Air flows in the bottom... over the HDs, and onto the cards.
There is a fan there for extra cooling as needed.

The lower rear fan catches the PCI and AGP heat.

The upper rear fan is dedicated to the CPU and you can see the
thermal sensors into the CPU heatsink fins.

On the AGP card, that white 'connector', is the other temp sensor.


The NewCastle, when finished, had an Antec TruePower550 with
exhaust fan as well to pull CPU heat if needed (another safety).

I am not good at mechanical, but the air flow is clean, the board is
not cluttered... Everything is pulled off to the sides of the chassis
(why it looks so bad) to keep the center open for best air flow.

Someday I will pull out ALL the 12v connectors and get a tie-wrap
gun from work and do it nice and neat.

Notice the lower left vent and upper vents which allow that 'extra' air
pressure I talked about to escape. Extra heat (in case wires are in
the way) gets out there.

(( I tried to embed the HTML but can't get it right.... ANYONE is welcome to fix it as needed))... I am *NOT* a web weenie...lol


http://www.tumoeng.com/amd/pc1and2.htm



BC.

[em99010pepe]

BC wrote this,

Ok, Nothing fancy.... All pics are thumbnail hyperlinks to higher quality/resolution images.

Here are the PC's.... The first is the bare NewCastle as it was being built, you can see the T-Take fans
and hard disk bay cooler mounted. The AGP is there, as are the thermal sensors in the heatsinks of the
CPU and AGP card.

(FYI: The NewCastle had to leave today.... Dad's P3 is in bad shape, so he has the NewCastle.)

http://www.tumoeng.com/amd/NewCastle-Empty_small.jpg
NewCastle being built.

Now, Here is the older, but FULLY loaded Clawhammer that I chat with you all on.
Count the HD's, Cards, etc. Notice the front air inlet is taped as I have suggested.
and the design / cooling as I have described it. The one T-take is all black.

http://www.tumoeng.com/amd/Clawhammer-outside_small.jpg
Side view....

http://www.tumoeng.com/amd/Clawhammer-Front_small.jpg
Front View
(there is an 80GB HD behind that temp gauge,
and the reading at that moment is chassis ambient in F)

Last, but not least, THE INSIDE VIEW!!!! LOL
http://www.tumoeng.com/amd/Clawhammer-loaded_small.jpg

Yes, it needs 'dressing up', but it works as I want it to.
Airflow is NOT restricted. ALL PCI slots are full.
The Red AGP is that 100C heater 9800XT Radeon.
Those other cables are both Audigy and disk controller #2.
If you look carefully, you can see the temp sensors running around.



(Let me know via the boards if I should identify all the parts)

Source (http://www.tumoeng.com/amd/pc1and2.htm)

[BC]

Gents,
I made a mistake and wish to ammend my comments.

I was correct that the A64's and above all have the quad
capability....

What I failed to mention was that the FX-53 has it available
and it runs by default. It runs at 1600 .

Just wanted to get that straightened out before I forgot.

My apologies for the oversight, I have been a bit busy and
as such, I was thinking one product and writing of another...
knowing I am not allowed to put names, details, or dates together.



BC

[Beerknurd]

:shock: BC ..... That is no excuse for messing up on your posts... You should be ashamed of yourself for posting inaccurate information. But I guess we can forgive you this time... Especially me since I don't know what the hell your talking about anyway. Just don't let it happen again.... [-X

[em99010pepe]

:shock: BC ..... That is no excuse for messing up on your posts... You should be ashamed of yourself for posting inaccurate information. But I guess we can forgive you this time... Especially me since I don't know what the hell your talking about anyway. Just don't let it happen again.... [-X

I agree with you. ;)

[BC]

:shock: BC ..... That is no excuse for messing up on your posts... You should be ashamed of yourself for posting inaccurate information. But I guess we can forgive you this time... Especially me since I don't know what the hell your talking about anyway. Just don't let it happen again.... [-X

I agree with you. ;)

Well, I *CAN* fix that... :2gunfire: LOL

[jlangner]

Well I should get my A8V (939) motherboard today. I already have the A64-3500 (Most I could afford now - lol), so hopefully will get home from work and the good ole UPS man has visited and then get her up and running tonight!!

[Keith75]

I am dying to see how you like the 939 setup. Be sure to let us know all the details. LOL

Keith

[Anonymous]

I am dying to see how you like the 939 setup. Be sure to let us know all the details. LOL

Keith



He will!!! :D