Global Warming....

[Keith75]

Wonder what most of you guys thought about global warming. I have been pretty much convinced that it was a global cycle. If it isn't than why was it so much warmer in the past before people were here? I thought this graph at the bottom of this page was interesting.

http://www.scotese.com/climate.htm

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/temperature/

[spikey_richie]

I partly agree, but you have to aknowledge that the volume of crap that has been pumped into the atmosphere over the last 150 years is to blame.

The levels of CO2 in the atmosphere are higher than they have been for millenia, and that can be directly attributed to industry.

I was reading an article yesterday that suggested bio-fuels will only accelerate the decay of our atmosphere - I can't help but think that the report was commissioned by the fuel companies to convince us bio fuels are bad.

[Keith75]

When I learn though that during most of the planets history it was on average 20-30 degrees fahrenheit warmer than today I don't see why we should be blaming humans. This is much colder than usual right now. If the temperature was going up warmer than what was normal then it seems like we should start looking at our own activity. From what I have read our temperature is only going of a few tenths of a degree.

[spikey_richie]

The temperature and intensity of the suns rays has increased on the polar ice caps thus causing them to melt. On average could mean that the polar caps have been colder than today, but around the equator temperatures have been higher historically.

[Ototero]

So called "global warming" is offset by so called "global cooling". I think it is very presumptuous of us to think we are clever/powerful enough to affect the global climate.

I believe it is all a ruse to generate jobs for the scientists.

[Lagu]

Yes, Spekey_Richie are right. Cars release carbon Dioxide, our industry and homes release different substances when they use coal, flight release a lot of crap and where happen this? Overall but USA is the contry as have most of all things and Bush rate the Kyoto aggrement as should work for a increase of these substanses trough cleaning tecniques.

In Sweden we have long ago use this technique whish is a Law on. We use nature gas to our cars and Busses trying avoid too mych scrap but what help it when other contries continue as they are used and shout their eyes locked for the real fact? Bad air comes from Russia, Poland and other contries on Euroipe.

It is obiviosly we humans as is the cause who should we blame else? It is all peoples as is into the governement in different countries as have maked laws as allowed os build industrys as release scrap.

I think we all can agree to this simple fact:

We was ignorant about how danger it could be in the future. Year 1950 peoples and our experts and so we normal peoples were not aware how danger some discharge was. Only during the last 15 year we have woke up and slowly tried do anything.

They have varn us already several times that the petrol can run dry but are we serious on that or not? Are we quick buy a car and run it on nature gas or another than bensin (petrol) to save petrol? If it happen about 25 year for example vi cant say we not knew that.

[vaughan]

I think all the global warming talk is a load of hot air put out by journalists and doomsayers trying to get copy to fill their news bulletins.

My opinion is based on Le Chatelier's Principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Ch%C3%A2telier%27s_principle) - "If a chemical system at equilibrium experiences a change in concentration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration), temperature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature), volume, or total pressure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure); the equilibrium will shift in order to minimize that change."

For example: a cup of hot coffee will try to cool down to the ambient temperature.

As Keith's link in the original post showed, the whole global temperature thing is a cycle played out over millions of years.

My 2c :icon_wink:

[Lagu]

Yeah, they as live longest may see how it goes:icon_wink:

[daddygeek]

Every couple of years the end of the world is is at hand. Run, Hide, Protect yourselves. It's been that way for 2000+ Years.

[jmblazek]

My 2c…

There is absolutely NO DOUBT that the planet earth has gone through many cycles and changes in its short ~4.8 billion years of existence. AND there's absolutely NO DOUBT that humans are affecting this current cycle.

As Vaughan points out, systems seek equilibrium. Basically everything in the Universe seeks harmony.

Wind is a perfect example on earth of the atmospheric conditions seeking equilibrium. It's the reaction between high and low pressure systems. Their approximity and the higher or lower the systems are the greater the force of the wind.

That's why many predict that the further the earth experiences a change in one direction; the more violent the storms will become to equalize it. This is just the small reaction within the larger reaction.

Empirical evidence shows Global Warming is in fact happening. And I'm confident that at some point in the future it will be followed by Global Cooling as the planet earth seeks equilibrium.

Human impact is more of a facilitator than an instigator. Consider our effect as an accelerator of Global Warming not a creator. It's no different than, let's say, the Super Volcano that we call Yellowstone National Park (http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/supervolcano/supervolcano.html), erupting for 150 years straight. You can bet it would have an effect on the equilibrium of the planet earth. :)

Mind you, Homo sapiens did not exist through ANY of the previous cycles. We actually didn't show up until the near end of the Pleistocene period…~200,000 years ago. I feel quite confident that there's a reason for that. I also feel confident that we won’t be around for future cycles unless we become more intelligent.

Yes, our species survived a few ice ages but we were much smaller in numbers and the changes were very slow and small allowing us to evolve. Heck, if you look at the graphs you won’t even see the ice age blips relative to the total changes that have happened in previous periods…that’s how small they were.

Speaking of graphs though, take a look at this comparison of CO2 levels and glacier activity in the late Pleistocene period:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Atmospheric_CO2_with_glaciers_cycles.gif Notice how in the past 650,000 years, the planet earth has not experienced CO2 levels where they are now...much less where they are going.

I don't think that our focus should so much be on Global Warming per say...it's going to happen whether we like it or not…that’s a fact! I think we should be focusing on not accelerating it to a point that it outpaces our survival as a species. We shouldn't help Global Warming along where it surpasses our ability to adapt (evolve)...or at least become intelligent enough to create life support systems so we can survive.

We should also focus on sustainability. We definitely have a lot of room for improvement in this category.

But hey, maybe this is Mother Nature’s way of getting rid of an infestation. :)

p.s. some fun stuff from the Matrix…
Agent Smith : I'd like to share a...revelation I had, during my time here. It came to me when I tried to...classify your species.

I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but...you humans do not. You move to an area...and you multiply...until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to.. spread to another area.

There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Humans beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet...and we...are the cure.

p.p.s. Speaking of cycles, if we survive all the changes that Mother Nature throws at us, several catastrophic meteor hits, and human’s ignorance, we must still eventually leave planet earth within the next 5 billion years. Otherwise, we will cease to exist along with our sun: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sun_Life.png

[AMDave]

When all is said and done, 1/8 (or more) of the world population will likely be displaced by higher sea levels. It appears to be inevitable given some of the archealogical findings.

Whilst our politicians are picking sides to lobby on, the Insurance companies are already warning that coastal properties may become uninsurable in the near future. If that doesn't wake up the local councils, civil planners and governments then maybe the prospect of incredible death tolls and the liability of their accountability ought to keep them awake nights.

I am not a pious person, but I think the tale of the Ark was a story perpetuated in folklore and religious texts for a reason. It was not necessarily a religious related event, but the texts would have been a good means to preserve the record in a narrative form. Far fetched? I do not think so.

Something I would like to see more of in these historical charts is some corrlation to tectonic plate movements, ratio of land surface area to water surface area and global impact and volcanic events. The timing of some of these change events could also be significant in relation to the picture painted by these research documents.

Just a thought.

[Nflight]

We should also focus on sustainability. We definitely have a lot of room for improvement in this category.

Applause Applause Applause, Thank you for that wonderful comment jmblazek!

As your quote that I have outlined states; "We should focus our world on sustainability technologies because yes, we do have a lot of room for improvements".

I started my company to capitalize on that exact area. Take a normal operation of a factory, it dwells on making one product very well, with the least amount of time and effort to produce that one product and then call it profitable. As the constant costs of operating that facility rise you raise the prices of said product to compensate only to find out that while your focus is on one product the only way to survive is to diversify your capabilities beyond just a single focus and use all the residues you generate in a mannerism for sustainability.

My company focuses on the willing production plants to refocus on using each residue they generate as an energy sources and not pay some one to take them away. This of course is the main focus when you look at the single product as only financial gain and not a total operating efficiency.

Waste of energy laden material; that you remove from one place and take to somewhere else is foolish, use all that your capable of and find out that working just 8 hours a day is better then making people work 24 hour shifts just to make it possible to make a profit.

Waste of space; look over the complex you have purchased and make sure your using all of the potential that land has to offer. Take into account at looking at locations from an energy standpoint. When you build a production facility do not include using fossil fuels as your primary source of energy, use at the most 1/25 of your design with fossil fuels by replacing the sources of energy with what mother nature has provided all around you.

Waste of prosperity from industrial parks; while locating in one small area away from the public is fine. Look at combining the needs of the park into one source of heat and energy, with designing into the Residue of the parks inhabitants to use the energy laden material as the fuel to power the industrial park.

This type of thinking is what brought my thinking into my company's main focus: Multiple Asset Re-Generation or Marg Energy Inc.

I don't suggest that every location is possible but what if we can make a difference in the way we take a big step in reducing our needs on the finite resources of fossil fuels. They the Fossil fuels will not last forever. And once the Sun finally stops burning brightly we the human race won't be able to survive without it. :sad5:

[Ototero]

The Ark may be a myth, but the flood did happen. Not world wide, but it happened when the sea broke though what is now Istanbul into the Black Sea, which was land at the time. To all the people in and around the area, it must have seemed a world wide event.

[jmblazek]

The Ark may be a myth, but the flood did happen. Not world wide, but it happened when the sea broke though what is now Istanbul into the Black Sea, which was land at the time. To all the people in and around the area, it must have seemed a world wide event.
Very interesting. I did not know about that event. I'll definitely have to do some reading up on it.

We actually had several megafloods here in the US. They happened during the Ice Ages...the last one over 20,000 years ago. Evidence supports that homo sapiens entered North America around 40,000 years ago, so it looks like some may have been affected by these events.

One maverick scientist came up with a hypothesis in 1920 that was so outrageous at the time that he was shunned by his colleagues. While later people came around to see his theory as being the most plausible one, it took a 1996 event in Iceland to solidify it...an ice dam collapsing. Iceland scientists were able to witness on a small scale what more than likely happened in the ice ages.

Here's more info if you're interested:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/megaflood/

Can you imagine fishing along the shore of a small stream or hunting in the forest nowhere close to water and then all of a sudden, from an event that happened 500 miles away, a several hundred foot wall of water traveling at 60 mph swallows you up!!!

That would have been something to witness...from a distance of course...like the space station! :)

[Ototero]

The east coast of America + 500 miles inland are in danger of a volcano slide on 1 of the islands of the Canaries. That will produce a mega wave of 200' travelling at 500mph.

Incidentally, the Mediteranean was probably the biggest mega flood of all time.

[Ototero]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory

[AMD-USR_JL]

The east coast of America + 500 miles inland are in danger of a volcano slide on 1 of the islands of the Canaries. That will produce a mega wave of 200' travelling at 500mph.

Yea, we are screwed. If the one in yellowstone doesn't get us, that one will. :(

[Ototero]

The one in Yellowstone (actually Yellowstone IS the volcano) will see off the whole world. It erupts every 600,000 years. The last eruption was 600,000 years ago!!!!!!

[Strongbow]

The one in Yellowstone (actually Yellowstone IS the volcano) will see off the whole world. It erupts every 600,000 years. The last eruption was 600,000 years ago!!!!!!

Who's counting them? :icon_wink:

[PcManiac]

I wanna throw a few cents in too!

Starting off with the chart from Keith75, as good as it looks, you would have to make yourself believe that the world is 2 Billion years old.
http://www.scotese.com/images/globaltemp.jpg

Moving on



There is absolutely NO DOUBT that the planet earth has gone through many cycles and changes in its short ~4.8 billion years of existence. AND there's absolutely NO DOUBT that humans are affecting this current cycle.Agree and disagree. now the earth is a "short" 4.8 billion years old?

::break: I left for a few hours, and now I am continuing my post::

Here is a question. why is it so hard to believe that there was a catastrophic world wide flood? like as in EVERYTHING being covered?
Just look at Mt. Everest for example. did you know that the top of the mountain is covered is Sea Shells? how did those get there?
Another example of a catastrophic world wide flood is the Grand Canyon in Arizona. most people believe that the river at the bottom carved it out over millions of years. however in some areas of the canyon, the river would have had to flow uphill for a number of years... how does that work?
I think it is easier to believe that a flood carved it out in a matter of hours.
In 1980 when Mt. St. Helen's erupted, the mudslide created a mini Grand Canyon in just a few hours. Take a look: http://www.goldengatephoto.com/jpeg/01NW-15-9.jpg

So where did all that water come from if the entire earth was really covered in water?
Excellent question. before the flood, there would have been a water vapor canopy around the earth. hence why people used to live for 900 years.
why? because it would have been like living in a greenhouse, and you would not have all the harmful rays we get from the sun today.
so when the canopy came down, there was more than enough water to completely cover the earth.


I gotta go clean house. grrrr

[Ototero]

Everest is covered in sea shells because once all the Himalayas were at the bottom of the ocean. When the India landmass careered north and bumped into the big continent, it pushed up the Himalayas and is still doing so.

[jmblazek]

Everest is covered in sea shells because once all the Himalayas were at the bottom of the ocean. When the India landmass careered north and bumped into the big continent, it pushed up the Himalayas and is still doing so.

Quite right. It's like Alice in Wonderland...where the top was once the bottom and the bottom was once the top.


Just look at Mt. Everest for example. did you know that the top of the mountain is covered is Sea Shells? how did those get there?
Check out Tectonic Plate movement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_tectonics


now the earth is a "short" 4.8 billion years old? Actually I was a bit off. It's closer to 4.55 billion years (plus or minus about 1%). The Universe is measured to be between 3,298 years old (Biblical geneaologies) and 15.6 billion years (Radioactive Dating of an Old Star). However, the more accepted estimate from a "cosmological model based on the Hubble constant and the densities of matter and dark energy" is 13.7 billion years old +/- 200 million years.

Considering that some predict the Universe to last 1 trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years into the future, 4.55 billion years is infinitesimally short.


I think it is easier to believe that a flood carved it out in a matter of hours.
Not only is it easier to believe, it's even more probable. See previous post: http://amdusers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46203&postcount=14 and http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/megaflood/

Other Notes:
- The Yellowstone Caldera is over 70 miles across. Wikipedia has a basic description...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowstone_Caldera

- In about 3 billion years, our Milky Way galaxy is expected to pass through the Andromeda galaxy, which may or may not result in a collision.

[PcManiac]

- In about 3 billion years, our Milky Way galaxy is expected to pass through the Andromeda galaxy, which may or may not result in a collision.

Lol, I hope I Am not here when that happens :icon_razz:

I don't want to be too controversial, that is not what this forum is for :)

[Opteron]

- In about 3 billion years, our Milky Way galaxy is expected to pass through the Andromeda galaxy, which may or may not result in a collision.

I just watched an hour long show on this one topic and it won't even take a collision a near miss will kill everything on earth... Either way we'll be watching from the sidelines " I HOPE "...:icon_mrgreen:

[Steve Lux]

I think that humanity does play a role in global warming. I don't think we are the main contributor, but we do have an influencing effect. How much global warming gas is produced by nature is not our concern as it is basically outside the realm of our control. US President Bush was right to tell the truth; that the USA could not meet the UN's Kyoto Protocalls within the stipulated time frame. Would it be honest to sign a treaty that you know you cannot keep? I know he/we caught a lot of domestic and international flack for not signing that treaty, but at least he had the integrity to stick with the truth. This doesn't mean that progress cannot be made. Progress is being, and will continue to be made by individuals and organizations both domestically and internationally.

I wonder how much CO2 was emmitted into the atmosphere when Saddam had his troups blow up 732 oil wells in Kuwait and between 500 - 600 oil wells in southern Iraq? Oops, we never hear about this do we? Yeah, it's us first world nations that are doing all the damage.

I like the approach of some countries that tax the heck out of nonfertilizer-based petroleum products. This serves multiple purposes of effectively reducing the consumer use of petroleum products, drives the market to seek alternatives, drives the market to seek appropriate conservation practices, and provides a use-based tax that can be reinvested back into alternate energy research and to supplement applications.

[arshu123]

Wonder what most of you guys thought about global warming. I have been pretty much convinced that it was a global cycle. If it isn't than why was it so much warmer in the past before people were here? I thought this graph at the bottom of this page was interesting.

http://www.scotese.com/climate.htm

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/temperature/

Hi Friends,

I am taking notes on things that GOV should do to avoid Global warming.

http://globalwarming-awareness2007-arshad.com/

Please help me expand the topic.

Thanks!
Arshad

[arshu123]

Hi Friends,

I am taking notes on things that GOV should do to avoid Global warming.

http://globalwarming-awareness2007-arshad.com/

Please help me expand the topic.

Thanks!
Arshad

[Steve Lux]

Congratulations to our Brothers from Down Under (unclassified Alcoa internal document):

(AlcoaAust. Rel., April 29) Carbon Capture
A technology with the potential to deliver significant global greenhouse benefits and dramatically reduce the aluminium industry’s environmental footprint was officially unveiled in Perth today.
The ‘Carbon Capture’ system, developed by Alcoa’s global Technology Delivery Group based in Kwinana, was officially launched by WA Minister for the Environment and Climate Change, the Hon David Templeman, together with Mr Wayne Osborn, Managing Director of Alcoa of Australia.
The system has the potential to deliver significant global benefits by locking up CO2 in a greenhouse sink.
Mr Osborn explained, “The residue carbonation process involves mixing bauxite residue with CO2. This delivers greenhouse benefits by locking up large volumes of CO2 that would otherwise be released to the atmosphere.”
When operating at full capacity, the Kwinana carbonation plant will treat all of the residue produced by the refinery.
“This will lock up 70,000 tonnes of CO2 each year – equivalent to taking over 17,500 cars off the road,” Mr Osborn said.
As part of its on going commitment to reduce its global emissions, Alcoa plans to deploy the technology across its operations in Australia and worldwide.
“While the Kwinana plant is the first step in the application of this technology, deployment across Alcoa’s operations in Australia alone could potentially save 300,000 tonnes of CO2 each year – equivalent to removing 75,000 cars off the road,” Mr Osborn said.
Alcoa has taken a leadership position on climate change by reducing its global greenhouse emissions by 25 per cent compared to 1990 levels.
In Australia, Alcoa is addressing greenhouse emissions through energy efficiency, productivity improvements and technological innovation.
“Alcoa of Australia also supports the introduction of a properly designed emissions trading scheme that includes all major emitters and sectors, and which allows Australian industry to grow and thrive,” Mr Osborn said.
The sharing of technology such as Carbon Capture within the aluminium industry is also vital to its long term sustainability.
Mr Osborn advised, “Alcoa’s Western Australian refineries produce half the greenhouse emissions - per tonne of alumina - of a refinery in China.
Along with Carbon Capture, Alcoa’s Australian operations have a lot to offer not only the aluminium industry but the broader debate on reducing greenhouse emissions."

Three years ago I managed a $1.5 million project locally to install a Regenerative Thermal Oxidizer to burn 95-98% of our VOC's emitted during our painting process. We have reduced our local annual VOC emmissions from 285 tons down to less than 15 (typically less than 12) tons per year. Alcoa has been aggresively persuing a cohesive world-wide environmental impact reduction policy for more than 15 years now.

[Brucifer]

That's interesting to read. Seems as our news media spends too much time focusing on the negative, when there really are companies out there that are trying to do good things, and still making money at the same time.

[Steve Lux]

Heh, you don't know the half of it. If you're interested check this out:

http://www.alcoa.com/global/en/about_alcoa/sustainability/2020_Framework.asp

This is Alcoa's 2020 plan that was developed 7 years ago (2000). Providing this information in a public forum is an indication of their earnestness. I can tell you that as an Alcoa employee for the last 10 years they continually push the boundaries of not only what can be done, but of what should be done.

It's too bad they sold my business unit (Alcoa Home Exteriors) to PlyGem last year. PlyGem isn't a bad company, but they are 20 years behind Alcoa.

[Sdas]

Global Warming is getting more serious, if no actions are taken. Someday, we will have to move to other planets. The Earth will be covered with water and It will be the end of the day...:-(

[markb777]

get yourself a nice boat then...like they have in the navy even...

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~bgmark_quik/canadanavy[1].jpeg

[vaughan]

Global Warming is getting more serious, if no actions are taken. Someday, we will have to move to other planets. The Earth will be covered with water and It will be the end of the day...:-(

I disagree. With more water available from icecaps melting there is more chance for evaporation so there won't be as many deserts. :rolleyes:

[PcManiac]

I disagree. With more water available from icecaps melting there is more chance for evaporation so there won't be as many deserts. :rolleyes:

Interesting thought there Vaughan, it makes sense!
more water to evaporate, which makes more rain! ... NO! NOT MORE RAIN! (it is raining outside as I type ... ):icon_razz:

[NeoGen]

The problem is that rain doesn't spread evenly across the globe... :icon_rolleyes:

There will always be deserts, as well as areas with alot of rain...

[Steve Lux]

The problem is that rain doesn't spread evenly across the globe... :icon_rolleyes:

There will always be deserts, as well as areas with alot of rain...

Kind of like Arrakis and Caladan - all in the same planet?