New team member saying hello

[Area 51]

Hello!1!!!:icon_redface: :icon_razz:

I'm a fairly long-term SETI cruncher, although I have done PG on and off on various machines for a few months. Decided to side-line SETI for a while, at least until their new servers are bedded in - but I may just make PG my main project. :icon_lol:

Crunching with a 955be (stock speed due to cooling concerns) and 3xGTX285's (fairly heavily over-clocked, 2 liquid cooled, 1 air cooled). Should be dropping a 1090 into my machine sometime over the coming days/hours (depending on when the courier can fight his/her way to my door).

[AMDave]

Hi there Area_51.
It is an excellent pleasure to be able to welcome a contributing member to the forum.
Welcome to AMD Users!

I saw your stats bopping in and out of PG there for a while and the next time you appeared, today, you had blown way past me.
It looks like you have a great handle on those GTX's.

Indeed, PrimeGrid's PPS Sieve is turning out to be a going concern for the GPU.
I just checked again and the work queue has been greatly topped up, so there is plenty there to get us all higher in the ranks and also make a big difference to multiple math sub-projects.

I share your cooling concerns, having 4 GPUs now myself and no HVAC and living in an almost equatorial climate.
(I wonder how Dr Iggy is getting along, I should check his local weather reports tomorrow. I don't know how he manages it really)

You really need to clear the road and lay down the red carpet (with rose petals of course) for couriers bearing X6 CPUs. heh heh.
While you grab a double-headed axe, I'll go fetch my courier-edition steel-spiked-mace.
We can have that sorted out in no time flat. ;)

What liquid cooling gear are you using?

[Area 51]

My cooling is in a constant state of flux - well, more a constant state of planning!!!

Basically, I'm headed for 4 GPUs, but I wanted to cool each GPU on its on loop so I had massive redundancy and I would be able to upgrade the GPUs in the future without having to re-engineer the whole setup (hence only 2 GPUs on wc atm). Its slightly more expensive than using 1 or 2 loops conventional design would suggest, but it has distinct advantages.

For each loop, I use:

1 x Aqua Computer block
1 x 150mm phobya reseroir
1 x 240mm phobta radiator
1 x 240mm phobya rad' stand
4 x Fractral Designs 120mm fans (set up as push pull config)
4 x fan grilles
1 x phobya DC12 400 pump
1.5 m tubing
8 x plug 'n' cool eblows
PC Ice coolant
misc scews, nuts and bolts!!!!

This setup allows me to run a pump at just 30% to keep a GPU at about 45 degrees under full load. Overall, the setup is very quiet for its ouput. I think there's a little more headroom in the GPUs for further overclocking, as the temps are rock stable and the PG GPU app is a little better behaved than the SETI one. Each pair of loops uses an M cubed T Balancer controller to control pump load (not many fan controllers can do 2 x 20W)! The radiators and resevoirs live on the outside/top of the case, and the pumps occupy the 5.25 bay.

Right now, even if I could find the cash to setup a third loop, I have run out of real-estate on/in my case for the rad', pump and res', so the next stage will be a (much) bigger case! The current setup should comeout at close to 600k/day with the 1090 in place, and maybe a further 10% more after futher GPU oc'ing!

Can't say enough good things about plug 'n' cool fittings, just cut the tube push it into the fitting and you're done - brilliant bit of engineering!!!!

My cooling concerns tend to surround my houses' inability to loose heat since it has a lot of insulation. I'm finishing off a new study atm, which is bigger and beter positioned in the house for running this rig 24x7, so hopefully I will be in a position to expand its processing capacity fairly soon.

[Dirk Broer]

Hello Area51!
I've seen you in the lists before, wondered were you were.

It sure was not the cooler of my latest GPU cruncher that was the problem -a nice heatpipe system on a Sapphire HD3850 AGP- but it drew too much power at a moment, so tomorrow I'm off to buy a new PSU, a 500W one with the meant 8-pins PCIE connector for the blasted GPU. You CAN just use the 6-pin PCIE connector, but apparantly not with a 350W FSP PSU...
The new PSU has more advantages, such as SATA connectors and the possibility to run even better GPUs from it in the future. At the moment my CPU is almost finihed with the 1058 (estimated) hour job on a seventeen-or-bust WU, which was finished in little over 210 hours actual time.

[Jason1478963]

4 gpu's I think you may need a heat exchanger and a hot tub for the heat you will be making. I wonder how long before people are using evaporative cooling towers to cool their crunchers at home. It is nice to have the heat in winter time, but when you need to run the a/c to keep the room cool it feels like your wasting electricity that could be running a few more crunchers. Best of luck on the GPU crunching

[Area 51]

4 gpu's I think you may need a heat exchanger and a hot tub for the heat you will be making. I wonder how long before people are using evaporative cooling towers to cool their crunchers at home. It is nice to have the heat in winter time, but when you need to run the a/c to keep the room cool it feels like your wasting electricity that could be running a few more crunchers. Best of luck on the GPU crunching

One of the reasons I run 285s atm; they are quite well behaved in terms of their heat output. When the rig finally gets moved to its new home, it will be the heating for that room, as there is currently no heating in there. In the summer, I can always back off the overclocks, and if necessary shut down 1 or 2 GPUs, but living in Scotland - this is unlikely to be a big problem!! It will be a long time before the 4th GPU comes on-line since a case upgrade needs to happen first, followed by a third loop for my existing third GPU and then a PSU upgrade!

if it ever got to the stage where I couldn't manage the heat output, I would back off; there is no way I mad enough to start looking at a/c purely for this! I also have limited myself to run only one dedicated cruncher - I can't afford to run any more - so it makes sense (to me) to 'tool it up' as much as I can.

[Area 51]

Woohoo:

The parcel has been loaded on to the drivers van
4 Dec 2010
09:12

A day late, but hopefully my 1090 will turn up today! Just waiting for the bit that says "the driver has got in his cab" on the tracking site now!!!

[Jason1478963]

best of luck with the 1090... It seems to be a great CPU for me.... I wish I had a couple more and a budget to run them all. WOW.... 3 loops in one computer? I currently have 4 computers on one loop with an old water heater(storage tank) via a heat exchanger. It doesn't seem to require high flow rates to keep this stuff cool. I think fitting enough radiators on your case is going to be the hard part. Best of luck on the upgrades and welcome to the team.

[Area 51]

best of luck with the 1090... It seems to be a great CPU for me.... I wish I had a couple more and a budget to run them all. WOW.... 3 loops in one computer? I currently have 4 computers on one loop with an old water heater(storage tank) via a heat exchanger. It doesn't seem to require high flow rates to keep this stuff cool. I think fitting enough radiators on your case is going to be the hard part. Best of luck on the upgrades and welcome to the team.

Love the 1090; 50% more cores with no extra heat!!!! There's about 1.5 degrees extra on the Northbridge, but I can live with that. Big salute to AMD for the design of the 1090; very impressive.

Multiple loops aren't so odd. A lot of people put in two pumps (and sometimes two rads) for setups that have multiple colling surfaces to deal with, I kind of just went that little further !!!!! :-).

[Jason1478963]

Love the 1090; 50% more cores with no extra heat!!!! There's about 1.5 degrees extra on the Northbridge, but I can live with that. Big salute to AMD for the design of the 1090; very impressive.

Multiple loops aren't so odd. A lot of people put in two pumps (and sometimes two rads) for setups that have multiple colling surfaces to deal with, I kind of just went that little further !!!!! :-).

I can see the reason for the multiple loops as it can be tricky to balance the flow on 4 parallel loops. It sounds like you have the radiator aspect covered. If you find you need more and price is getting high a heater core from a car can do a very nice job as well. My father was able to find a copper heater core from a car that works well for him. I started with a koolance setup and have found their stuff to be getting to expensive for my hobby. The GPU water blocks especially as they are out dated with the next generation of cards. I would be interested in seeing some pictures of your setup when you get it done :)

[Area 51]

I can see the reason for the multiple loops as it can be tricky to balance the flow on 4 parallel loops. It sounds like you have the radiator aspect covered. If you find you need more and price is getting high a heater core from a car can do a very nice job as well. My father was able to find a copper heater core from a car that works well for him. I started with a koolance setup and have found their stuff to be getting to expensive for my hobby. The GPU water blocks especially as they are out dated with the next generation of cards. I would be interested in seeing some pictures of your setup when you get it done :)


I've seen some great pictures of car rad' cooled setups and certainly, if you cant get a pump with enough balls to push the fluid through (and keep the joints water-tight), they make good sense - providing you can also keep the noise down. I know that feeling about the water blocks all to well; whilst the rest of the cooling setup will be able to handle the next, and probably the next generation of GPUs, I can't help feeling that the water-block are the weak (and expensive link).

I think there is a solution though - its just not commercially available atm. I used to work as a miller, and I know I could easily have got a better finish (read smoother) than the contact surfaces of the water-blocks from Aqua Tuning that I use (I've seen the video of their production, and I'm not impressed). I cannot see why 'shims' can't be used. If you had shims that were manufactured to a stated thickness, to a very high tolerance (say 1 micron - which is quite easy to do today) with a very smooth surface finish, you could quite easily build a 'universal' water-block that contacted the shims, placed on critical surfaces) via thermal paste. Since the critical dimension is the thickness (the other dimensions are nowhere near as critical), these would be quite cheap to produce. Yes you would loose a degree of thermal conductivity, but that could be allowed for. This way, you would only have to swap out the shims for the relevant thickness when you upgraded.

Perhaps I shoud patent the idea........

[Area 51]

I'm in the process of finishing a new study atm, which will be a lot cooler than my current study (which sits above and behind a very hot wood burning stove!!!!!) and doesn't have a window to speak of.

Unfortunately, I have to move my rig to the new study once its finished - which is a real problem due to the weight of the setup and the fact I only have ladder access to it!!! Santa has bought me a new toy (after some gentle sterring and hinting) - which will help a great deal with my case real-estate issues and rig transport. Providing my quick release couplings turn up within the next 10 days, I will be spending a whole day re-plumbing the externals of my setup (incorporating the new toy and said QR couplings) during my extended 4 day xmas break. Once this is done, I'll be happy to supply internal and external shots and provide fedback on any of the compnents I have used.

[Nflight]

I like to read about someone so interested in heating and cooling, it encourages me to step up and say I feel proud that I am not the only one who thinks this way in the team effort. Nice Job Area 51, I am impressed. Yet, wasting that heat in Scotland in this time of year could be detrimental, double heating and double cooling in the summer just rubs me the wrong way sometimes. Imagine the computer in a room, in the house; Simply stated you vent the heat from the radiators into the house then the house cooling or heating system has to work against the heating and cooling of the weather outside. If only you can visualize a box in a box scenario. Vent the excess heat outside of the house from your CPU's is much better energy valued then having to use a secondary HVAC system to do it all over again. Cramped quarters near the stove sounds hazardous to controlling the heat. Good Luck I will continue to keep reading this marvelous work your doing.

My Knowledge base is in Sustainable Energy Engineering.

[Tamaster]

I've got a geothermal conversion going into my place next week (we start the dig on the 27th). I've got (many) friends that have recommended based upon their experience. I've already got two possible buyers for the Heat Pump system that it replaces.

[Nflight]

Great Tamaster - Are you going for a single zone or multiple zones. I know Indiana gets some serious snow fall if you live around the Great Lakes snow belt! Winters can be mighty chilly too!

[Jason1478963]

That is great....I do hope your able yo claim the tax credit this year as I keep hearing they have not been renewed after this year.

I am also experienced in the Renewable Energy field.

[Tamaster]

I actually live in the south-central part of Indiana, and while the snow-fall is not at serious as it can get up by the lakes, the temperature can get REALLY cold. Season over season swings of 130 degrees F (25 below to 105 above) make geothermal a 'no-brainer'. The system is going to be a single-zone 29.7 EER 5 ton ClimateMaster with 2-stage compressor and variable speed fan; a 20Kw auxiliary backup and running 600 feet of buried horizontal tubing five feet down. The Hot Water Generator will provide pre-heat for an on-demand tank-less water heater. We will be qualifying for the 30%, no-limit Federal Tax Credit due to the completion and payment middle of next week. I just hope we don't hit too much lime stone...

[NeoGen]

I am amazed at these renewable energy solutions... and I am trying to save for one, although it may take a little while yet, but around how much will a setup like that cost approximately?

[Nflight]

Every Geothermal Install for one homeowners benefit is very expensive. To accomplish quality work you need to find an experienced geothermal company or someone who has credentials that says they worked for a quality installer and is starting out on their own. If geothermal contractors do not have any references of work they have accomplished then, do not use them.

For an honest opinion on what it might cost; A lot of the design and layout depends on the geology/hydrology of the land your home or site is located on. So pointing to a figure is very difficult without an observation of your land you have to install this. Lots of factors come into play that could lower your total cost by $10,000 if you have the right land arrangement (hence - a small spring fed pond of close to one acre in size). Most people do not have this equation so the price will be nearly $15,000 per 2400 Square Foot home. That would be about a 4 Tonne HVAC install using existing hot/cold air circulation converted over from an existing Heat Pump system. If you need to run ducting through out your home add more then $5,000.oo to the equation. All in all a nice geothermal system could run you any where from $8,000 to $25,000 depending on so many factors. Again I point to this web site for many answers: http://www.hvac-for-beginners.com/geothermal.html plus if your curious about the Direct Expansion type here is more explanation: http://www.trane.com/COMMERCIAL/HvacSystems/1_2_Refrigerant.aspx?i=864

NeoGen I will search out a quality Arkansas Dealer in your area so that you don;t have to make poor judgment calls in finding the right dealer! Your Welcome.

[NeoGen]

Your Welcome.
"Thank you" should come before it, but you read my mind before I even thought it Nflight!! :)

Boy these things are expensive! :icon_razz:

[Nflight]

NeoGen - Your right they are too expensive for a single home owner to engage in such a refined approach. Geothermal heating and cooling is much better if you approach the equation supplying for several homes at the same time. This type of thinking is called Distributed Generation. (A link (http://www.88hvac.com/geothermal.html) for that) NeoGen I can not tell you how much knowledge you need if your interested in pursuing this equation, but I can tell you ask the prospective dealers lots of questions - then ask me to make sure their answers were similar. Gee what questions do I need to ask you say, if your curious I can work up a few to ask when we get to that point. Geothermal is location specific, the land the site will be located on and the insulation the home is equipped with will determine your savings year round!

As for expense yes nothing in renewable energy is cheap!

[Tamaster]

Well... if I lived somewhere that the temperature didn't diverge so dramatically from the ground temperature @ 60" down (pretty constant approx. 50 degrees F) then it wouldn't be worth doing. But, I'm gaining up to 75 degrees during winter and up to 55 degrees during summer, which is significant. It beats the hell out of the high-efficiency heat pump it is replacing. That and I'm in this for the long run due to my planning to stay in my house long enough for it to pay. I expect to recover the cost from the tax credit, selling off my old equipment and pocketing a conservative savings of at least $1000/year. Being in the country rules out 'sharing' the costs with other homeowners. Standard disclaimers apply. Your mileage may vary, batteries not included, etc. etc... And yes, I did my due diligence and had a thermal load analysis done along with getting three bids from competing contractors who were recommended by friends with prior experience with them. And on top of that, I'm going to be performing a whole list of improvements over a multi-year schedule to seal leaks, improve R-factor ratings and incrementally fix things that detract from the ability of the system to work at peak efficiency. No, it isn't cheap. You takes your chances and pays your dues...

[Nflight]

Tamaster and NeoGen here are some images that really explain the DX Expansion of Geothermal #1 http://www.altdotenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/gph-heating.jpg and the next is here:http://enerquest.ca/images/Ground-Source-HeatPump_Cycle.gif both of them give you a deciding effort at eclipsing the problems of using just hot or cool air for the your home. Even if you need hot water it is possible from Geothermal heat like Tamaster is using. But once again it is not a cheap option.

[Tamaster]

We completed the outside work on Wednesday ('600 equivalent of buried capacity in a rather complex dual-folded linear stub arrangement) and the inside work today (including the plumbing for hot water generation). The ground loop took quite a bit of back-hoe digging and consumed more yard than I expected (though I had enough). We only ran into a cluster of limestone with the largest weighing perhaps around 100 pounds (easily dealt with). This spring I'll hire someone to bring a tractor and re-grade it after it has had time to settle in this winter. We had a good crew of 6 experienced guys doing the conversion.

All in all, it went smoothly...

The improved air handler capacity is already making a world of difference. We are still in the check-out mode of operation and now we are having un-seasonably warm weather so heat isn't even needed. Sheesh! I want to see this thing WORK!

Oh well... I'm sure it'll be getting back to the cold stuff real soon.

[shotgunner101]

I live in Indiana aswell I live near Jeffersonville!!! Hoosiers ftw :P.