Taking the jump to AMD.

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

Guys,
I crunch away on Boinc for TSBT and all my current equipment is Intel based. I have never owned any AMD mobo's but wanted to know more about them and their respective CPU's.
On that basis if I was going to build a new cruncher based on AMD, what would you guys recommend as best for boinc ? and how does it compare to Intel products.
Also if I was going to build a system based on older AMD stuff, available 2nd hand on ebay etc., what cpu etc would you guys recommend ?
I have quite a few AMD 7770's and 7750's and would be looking at 2 GPU's in the system as well.
These specs would be for systems running solely boinc, under ubuntu linux 24/7.
So what would you guys recommend to me ?

[Dirk Broer]

I have a Ubuntu system running 24/7 on a F1A75-V EVO (A8-3870K APU and two HD 6670s for a triple GPU system together)

If you have HD 7750s and HD 7770s you might want to combine them with a A10-6800K/A10-6700 Richland (or A10-5800K/A10-5700 Trinity)
I have a Lubuntu System running with a A10-5700 and a HD 7750 and it even reports CrossfireX back to me (not that you need the crossfire for BOINC, you just need more GPUs)
Together with a three PCIe x16 slot mobo you can get up to a Quad GPU system. (Asrock Extreme 6, Asus A85X-PRO, Gigabyte A85X-UP4)

Mind you: running three or more OpenCL WUs at a time can seriously interfere with other projects....

Another approach would be to buy a 2nd hand 990FX mobo and fit two HD 7770s into it, using either a FX six- or eight core CPU to provide the CPU support.
(The 990FX allows for up to Quad Crossfire and SLI, the 970 will only crossfire two cards (x16 + x8) and the 990X is limited to dual x8 SLI and crossfire).
Six-core FX CPUs are getting quite affordable, even new...

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

Is the APU similar to an Intel HD4000 or does it report straight away as an openCL capable GPU ?

[Dirk Broer]

In BOINC-working you can regard it as the same (you need the line in the cc_config.xml, as BOINC will by default pick only the most able GPU)
In order to crunch you need the AMD Catalyst drivers, not those that Windows or Linux will use by default.

Performance-wise the A10 APUs leave the HD4000 standing still (just short of HD 7750 performance for the Trinity and Richland, and even better for Kaveri)

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

As a first jump, how do the older fx 6 or 8 cores stack up compared to the intel chips I am more familiar with ? What would be the equivalent and how hot do they run ? Are they true 6 or 8 cores or is it hyper threading ? I might consider pairing one up with 2 x R9 280's as I am impressed with the 1 I've got. 2/3rds the performance of my 7970, but 1/2 the price and a lower power consumption.

[Dirk Broer]

The FX six- and eight cores consist of three, repectively four modules. A module has two integer units and one floating point unit:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/AMD_Bulldozer_block_diagram_%28CPU_core_bloack%29. PNG/300px-AMD_Bulldozer_block_diagram_%28CPU_core_bloack%29. PNG

This means that when a BOINC project relies heavily on integer instructions that the FX six and eight cores behave like true cores. When a project relies heavily on floating point calculations however the performance is impaired by having just three or four FPUs. Most floating point applications have/are being re-written for GPUs though. There have been versions of CPU-Z that would give a hexacore FX as three core with hyperthreading and an FX octocore as being a quad with hyperthreading, but they corrected that: AMD does not use hyperthreading.

Performance of the FX chips is also impaired by the habit of Intel's compilers to favor Intel chips over chips from their competitors -denying those chips the possibility to carry out instructions they should be able to. As benchmarks are mostly compiled with Intel compilers too it is hard to give an honest comparison between Intel and AMD chips, but in short: AMD is better than Intel would like to admit.

You'd best compare chips with the same price, so a hexacore FX with i3 and the octacore with i5. Doing that, instead of comparing hexacores with the i5 and octacores with i7, sets the AMD performance to at least the level of the equivalent Intel offering for the same price.

They do run hotter though, partly because of the high clockspeeds (when you're being denied to perform AVX, SSE3 and newer instuctions you'd better carry out the others faster seems to be the AMD solution)

A R9 280 is very much like the older HD 7950, both working with a Tahiti Pro chip. A R9 280X would probably impress you even more as it uses the same chip as the HD 7970, but with lower power consumption, tdp is even lower than that of the R9 280 (by virtue of the GPU clock running lower than that of the HD 7790).

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

Looks like I will have to look into the r9 280x then. Prior to getting the R9 280, my 7970 was paired with an nVidia 660TI ( old one ). The 660ti is a great card ( I own 4 of them ) but they run hot, so when the 7970 and the 660ti where flat out that computer put out some serious BTU's. The 660ti now lives in a separate system and the R9 and 7970 live quite happily in a far cooler system now.
I must admit to liking my 7750's and especially the 7770's. 3000 gflops for £60 - £70 2nd hand on ebay is a winner ever time.
Thanks for the info as previously I had compared the 8 cores to my i7's and quite frankly they just didn't stack up.
Correct me if I'm wrong though, that if the fx series can't run AVX, then you can't run virtualbox on them and if they can't run sse3 then there are a few projects that you can't run at all ( or they are so slow as to not be worth the electricity )

[Dirk Broer]

My A8-3820 and A8-3870K (both K10 based Llano's) run VirtualBox, so AVX is no prerequisite for VirtualBox. AMD-V is what makes them able to do VirtualBox (comparable to Intel's VT-x).

To see whether a project has tweaked their application to make sure that every capable CPU uses it the right way you will have to use debug settings.
SSE3 is by now 'old' technology, so I doubt FX CPUs will still not be able to use those instructions, but you can read Agner`s CPU blog (http://www.agner.org/optimize/blog/) to read about the latest developments.

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

Thanks Dirk,
See I'm learning all the time, but obviously I am still equating intel tech to AMD without considering that the AMD chips have there own instruction sets. So basically I can see no real disadvantages to FX cores if I can pick them up at a decent price. How do the standard coolers stand up ? I know the intel ones I had for my i7's where....poor shall we say.I have 2 i7's and if I was to buy a third I wouldn't even bother taking the standard cooler out the box for Boinc.
And thankS for the link, I'll get reading before there are any more stupid questions :icon_mrgreen:

[Dirk Broer]

There are some instruction sets (e.g. 3D Now!, SSE 4a) that are AMD-only, but in general the instruction sets are very compatible. Look at WikiPedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_instruction_listings) or CPU-World (http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/CPU.html) for more information. Here (http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/444/AMD_FX-Series_FX-8350_vs_Intel_Core_i5_i5-3570K.html) CPU-World compares a FX-8350 with an Intel i5-3570K, up to the supported instruction sets used by both CPUs.
It is just that Intel is rather reluctant to let VIA or AMD use the more clever instructions and prefers to have compilers that check on vendor name instead of CPU capabilities...

Some projects (e.g Leiden Classical) prefer it even so: simple -so they understand it themselves too when it does not live up to expectations-, proven and guaranteed to be working on each and every CPU...

Stock coolers, whether Intel or AMD, are not up to crunching 24/7/365, especially not when you are overclocking. Boinc is already torturing your CPU with a 100% workload...
There are three ways:

BIG Air (as in e.g. Noctua NH-D14 (http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=productview&products_id=34&lng=en&set=1), Thermaltake Frio Extreme (http://thermaltake.com/products-model.aspx?id=C_00001826) or Phantek PH-TC14PE (http://www.phanteks.com/PH-TC14PE.html), to name just three top coolers). Does it allow for a second/third 120/140mm fan to be connected? Just do it.
Closed Loop Water Cooling (as in e.g. Corsair H100i (http://www.corsair.com/us/hydro-series-h100i-extreme-performance-liquid-cpu-cooler.html) or Corsair H110 (http://www.corsair.com/us/cpu-cooling-kits/hydro-series-water-cooling-cpu-cooler/hydro-series-h110-280mm-extreme-performance-liquid-cpu-cooler.html), to name two generally available good cooling products -better cooling, but louder than BIG Air)
Do-It-Yourself Open Loop Watercooling (as in spend more money on your cooling system than on your CPU, but get even better cooling too. You even may be able to use the waste heat intelligently: e.g. connect your jacuzzi to it...or warm your house with it)


Crappy older casings with 350Watt -or even less- PSUs are also out, you want to be able to ventilate your system with several 120mm (or even better 140mm) fans and to have a well-ventilated PSU with power to spare that does not heat up your casing. Mind you: cheap PSUs are not up to it too (24/7/365 crunching).

[Nflight]

Welcome to the Team Alez!

[Dirk Broer]

Hi Nflight,

Alez [TSBT Pirate] is a forum guest, he is already member of The Scottish Boinc Team (TSBT), a valued opponent in countless BOINC challenges and well versed in ye olde pirate language.
He wants to know more about AMD hardware and has found our forum the perfect place to ask questions about it.

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

Indeed it is the best place to ask you guys questions about AMD hardware. Now I just need to put this in motion and get hold of some hardware to run. Ebay search me thinkith :icon_mrgreen:

[Dirk Broer]

With the upcoming low energy/low cost platform war (AMD AM1 vs Intel Bay Trail (http://www.amdusers.com/forum/showthread.php/9694-New-AMD-Socket-AM1-(aka-FS1b))) you do good comparing the costs and benefits of 2nd hand hardware vs cheap new,
especially when buying old hardware implicates having to buy DDR2 RAM -or even older- for it too...you can better shove your slower DDR3 to AM1 or Bay Trail and buy
faster RAM for FM2/FM2+ or Haswell