ASICs and BOINC

[Dirk Broer]

Remember when I thought of using ASICs for BOINC, like with Bitcoins and other crypto currency?
Instead of ASICS coming to BOINC(projects), crypto currency mining has come to BOINC -even bringing their infernal ASICs (http://www.bitcoinutopia.net/bitcoinutopia/apps.php) with them.

The well-known cruncher Ste\/e (http://boincstats.com/en/stats/-1/user/detail/1/projectList) is crunching at the speed of up to 944 million credits a day (http://boincstats.com/en/stats/144/user/detail/23/lastDays) on Bitcoin Utopia at the moment!

[Nflight]

The well known cruncher SteVe used to be an AMD User named PoorBoy (mentioned in the last post on the first page of this enormous POST (http://www.amdusers.com/forum/showthread.php/4457-Introduce-Yourself?highlight=poor+boy)) He used to have a web site with his prized hot rod he built but it seems I have the old bookmark, its just not resolving anymore! :blob3:

[Dirk Broer]

Me thinks Poorboy has run into quite some money somewhere along his road to SETI.USA:
http://stats.free-dc.org/mosttag.php?cpid=13a87c3a303bcdca4ba0ed600daebb6b&theme=29

[Dirk Broer]

Speaking of Bitcoin Utopia: I just can't get WUs credited that run on either AMD CPUs or WUs on Linux boxes (the combination can be guessed)
The problems seem to be connectivity to a US server, but why can my Intel i7 CPU running Windows 8.1 have no problems?

[Nflight]

I don't think anyone of us (AMD Users) can figure that problem out for you. Message boards and Question & Answers will do you the most good at this point! :blob3:

Meanwhile I completed the App_config file myself and it worked, oh ok it worked the second time after some small adjustments!

[vaughan]

I cannot get an app_info.xml file to work for me on a twin nVidia GTX460 GPU machine for Bitcoin Utopia. I get a msg that the app_info is incorrect. Without it all CUDA tasks go Computation error at 3 seconds.

Why are these darned xml files so tricky? Why don't the projects have a list of them available that work!

This whole BOINC game is getting tedious.

[AMDave]

should be saved as an app_config.xml in the project's sub- folder, not an app_info. app_info is 'old style' :)

http://boinc.berkeley.edu/wiki/Client_configuration#Application_configuration

[AMDave]

Richard haselgrove summarised it better:
"app_info has to be used if you want to use an application (program) different from the one supplied automatically by the project.
app_config can be used to modify a limited number of the parameters for running a task - and yes, it can be used in conjunction with app_info, though it can be used with the stock application too. Think of it perhaps as 'app_info lite'.
A big advantage of app_config is that you can change it, and then 'Read config files' while BOINC is running. The changes take effect immediately. Because app_info is the 'heavy' version, you have to shut down BOINC and re-start it for changes to take effect."

Whilst the project could set these ( previous posts ) as default settings, they would not suit the general populus, so they leave it for us to tweak.
And the fact that we can, or choose not to, is a great feature.

[vaughan]

<app_config>
<app>
<name>lineA-cudaminer</name>
<gpu_versions>
<max_concurrent>2</max_concurrent>
<gpu_usage>0.5</gpu_usage>
<cpu_usage>0.1</cpu_usage>
</gpu_versions>
</app>

<app>
<name>cpuminer-bu-20140211</name>
<cpu_versions>
<max_concurrent>2</max_concurrent>
<cpu_usage>1.0</cpu_usage>
</cpu_versions>
</app>

Wont wor'k for CUDA, cpu tasks run fine. This is with Bitcoin Utopia.

[Dirk Broer]

<app_config>
<app>
<name>lineA-cudaminer</name>
<gpu_versions>
<max_concurrent>2</max_concurrent>
<gpu_usage>0.5</gpu_usage>
<cpu_usage>0.1</cpu_usage>
</gpu_versions>
</app>

<app>
<name>cpuminer-bu-20140211</name>
<cpu_versions>
<max_concurrent>2</max_concurrent>
<cpu_usage>1.0</cpu_usage>
</cpu_versions>
</app>

Wont wor'k for CUDA, cpu tasks run fine. This is with Bitcoin Utopia.

<app_config>
<app>
<name>lineA-cudaminer</name>
<gpu_versions>
<max_concurrent>2</max_concurrent>
<gpu_usage>0.5</gpu_usage>
<cpu_usage>0.1</cpu_usage>
</gpu_versions>
</app>

<app>
<name>cpuminer-bu-20140211</name>
<cpu_versions>
<max_concurrent>2</max_concurrent>
<cpu_usage>1.0</cpu_usage>
</cpu_versions>
</app>
</app_config>

333 MHs Block Erupter USB Miners are sold 2nd hand for 8 Euro's over here,
2 GHs USB Antminers go for 25 Euro.
5 GHs Red Fury USB Miners go for 50 Euro.
You could use them as a sort of co-processor, running the rest of your projects just like before.
Perhaps we should ask MiHost (http://stats.free-dc.org/stats.php?page=userbycpid&cpid=8c744c41a1652c57eece65288ab3e1f0) how he's doing it?

[AMDave]

Template and app names are here:
http://www.bitcoinutopia.net/bitcoinutopia/forum_thread.php?id=303#1409
...may have already posted earlier

[vaughan]

Thanks Dirk, I missed that closing line in the app_config.xml file.

Yes I agree MiHost has been going great.

[Nflight]

I have found a link from Berkley which will not open at this time, may be too many people reading the site! Who knows...

The Link (https://boinc.berkeley.edu/trac/wiki/ClientAppConfig) is here: But it was here that I was looking for aid from App_config.xml files from the internet.

I went digging to optimize the GPU once everyone finds the niche to get those pesky GPu's working. The LINK (http://www.dunadd.co.uk/seti/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2238) is here; Seems the person at the Scottish BOINC team found a niche accelerator in his attempt to secure quicker and more efficient means to push the output of the GPU he owns. This looks promising will take a look after i return from my meeting this morning and reply with my findings.

[AMDave]

cuda 3 sec error fix -> http://www.bitcoinutopia.net/bitcoinutopia/forum_thread.php?id=274#1099
sounds like they didn't package their client app correctly


... Without it all CUDA tasks go Computation error at 3 seconds. ...

[Nflight]

I went from 300,000 points to nearly 500,000 points by adding this app_config.xml file:

<app_config>
<app>
<name>cgminer</name>
<gpu_versions>
<gpu_usage>1.0</gpu_usage>
<cpu_usage>1.0</cpu_usage>
</gpu_versions>
</app>
<app>
<name>sgminer</name>
<gpu_versions>
<gpu_usage>1.0</gpu_usage>
<cpu_usage>1.0</cpu_usage>
</gpu_versions>
</app>
</app_config>

Exactly as I am showing it place it into the file: C:\BOINC\Data\projects\www.bitcoinutopia.net_bitco inutopia Because this is where I found it works best. Copy and paste that exact line I place there into your IE browser and it will take you to that folder.

Remember this is only on Bitcoin. Also please do not have Bitcoin running when you add the file. IF you are using Win 7 or 8 please change the file designation from .txt to .xml Windows inherently has everything listed as Text files.

I am using am AMD Ati R9 270, to reach these numbers!

AND Users Member MiHost (http://www.amdusers.com/forum/member.php/362-MiHost) can you help your Team Mates Clearly get us some serious change in Bitcoin Utopia?

[vaughan]

Thanks Nflight, very useful. Also big thanks to AMDave with the link to the solution to the 3 second problem. My fleet is full strength on BU now. Haven't convinced my wife about an ASICs machine yet.

[Dirk Broer]

Haven't convinced my wife about an ASICs machine yet.

Who needs convincion when you can buy a 5 Giga Hash USB stick for $100? That is about the same as a video card -But it consumes almost no power (0.85 Watt/GH) compared to a video card!

And they -Dual Chip RedFurys- are already been sold 2nd hand -no doubt due to the high electricity prices over here- for $50...
All you further need is a powered USB hub and a Raspberry Pi/a PC to control the hub (and some ventilator fans).

[MiHost]

Hello Team, About BU, i'm not using any kind of app_file, pretty much plug an play except for the driver, i have 1 R-BOX can get 30,000,000+ a day, plus i have 2 antminer U2 can get up to 3,000,000 a day with these. R-Boxes can be found Amazon for 60.00, free shipping and don't forget a 12V/6 Amp power supply. I hope this helps. Rick H

[vaughan]

Nflight I get error messages today using the app_config.xml
unfortunately BOINC Manager won't allow me to copy and paste the whole message, stupid BOINC application, but is refers to sgminer and cgminer. Perhaps you get the same errors?

[vaughan]

The Bitcoin Utopia numbers are getting way out of hand. I think the BOINC officials - David Anderson? - need to do something otherwise many people will abandon all projects except BU. For example, steVe did a quarter of my entire BOINC career's worth of cobblestones in 1 day, that's right In 4 days he generated as many BOINC points as I have accumulated running up to 30 machines in some years and about a dozen GPUs in recent years over at least the last decade.

Sort of makes the whole "game" pointless.

[AMDave]

I agree. I had the same thoughts when the ASICS kicked in. I pulled my machines from the project.
No scientific benefit that I can see and no contest. It just turned into a BOINC credit-fest for ASICs.
Note that this project certainly has a place in providing funding to start-ups, just not a place in the points for distributed computing for scientific advancement.
We had the a similar quandry with the AMD GPU contributions to Donate@home in the hope that further client development would follow, which resulted in naught. Ripped off.
That's not to say there's a level playing field in hardware support in any group of projects. Far from it.
But I don't see any other application that these ASICS can perform that can contribute scientifically.
That would require a different ASIC to be developed.
And that raises another overdue development change ... why are there no ASICs for the science applications that can actually make a difference?

[Dirk Broer]

For example, steVe did a quarter of my entire BOINC career's worth of cobblestones in 1 day, that's right In 4 days he generated as many BOINC points as I have accumulated running up to 30 machines in some years and about a dozen GPUs in recent years over at least the last decade. Sort of makes the whole "game" pointless.

It's worse than that: on the 5th of July he managed 1,068,285,000 credits on BU (FreeDC (http://stats.free-dc.org/stats.php?page=user&proj=bit&name=23))
On the bright side: most BU crunchers do not crunch at 100-odd other projects, so we can still outshine them in (Mega) Milestones, Badges, Trophies (did I hear SkyNet POGS?)...

[Dirk Broer]

And that raises another overdue development change ... why are there no ASICs for the science applications that can actually make a difference?

A question I have asked before in different words. We should start with porting BOINC to a FPGA (field-programmable gate array).
Once you get a project running through a FPGA it can be miniaturized into an ASIC -provided the chip maker sees profit in it, or if you have enough cash/(bitcoins?).

[AMDave]

Peaked your interest, eh?
Yes FPGAs are the first step (and re-useable)
Here's a blog note with a couple of relevant links: http://www.fpgaathome.org/
There are other FPGAs templates have been deployed for some other science apps
FPGA has also been discussed for WCG and FaH.
AFAIK some of the universities have deployed FPGA arrays in the past to supplement the progress of their projects but it hasn't become a "thing"
I haven't looked into that solution as much as I could have, so there may be some hurdles and plateaus encountered in that method, but surely the logical next step is a hardware specific ASIC.
Now that there are numerous ASIC manufacturing paths (albeit for BTC and DGC) they could be leveraged for the well established DC clients.
There is a short window of opportunity on that and it "should" be tested.
I had heard a rumour, in the past, of one project purchasing ASICs but lacking the upgrade path of FPGAs they became obsolete.
More than several years down the track, having established that GPUs are not the 'panacea' of scientific DC, it's worth looking at the FPGA & ASIC solution paths again.
I feel that the FPGA solution path has been under utilized and I should know more about it than I do.

[Nflight]

Nice Link AMDave, Looks like utilization of the unknown opportunities that exist but are not being felt in the DC world could use a boost. :blob3:

[Dirk Broer]

Not being felt in the DC world? (https://einstein.phys.uwm.edu/forum_thread.php?id=9686)

[vaughan]

Well I'm maxed out at around 10M a day. One quad core machine just refuses to run Bitcoin Utopia so its assigned to Asteroids and its GPU is on PG PPS sieving duty.
Unsure whether to get some of these ASICS USB stick thingies or to just give up on BOINC totally, the cobblestones race has slanted so far to Bitcoin Utopia its not a level playing field anymore. I'm sure I could do some more NPLB tasks. I'll think about it.

[Dirk Broer]

There seem to be USB stick thingies (Neo Fury (http://bitcoinmagazine.com/11527/the-newest-fastest-usb-bitcoin-miner-of-the-world-hello-hex%E2%80%A2fury/)) that can get 11 GH/s. There's even an Australian ebay seller for it (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nano-fury-6-10-14-GH-s-USB-Bitcoin-Miner-BTC-ASIC-6x-Bitfury-Australian-Seller-/111407876880?pt=AU_Components&hash=item19f06d4b10)
http://bitcoinmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/hex%E2%80%A2fury.-11GH.jpg

No. of chips: 6 Bitfury chips,
Hashrate: ~11GH/s out of the box, up to 15GH/s overclocked,
Power usage: ~0.86W per GH,
Dimensions: 26x60mm without usb plug,
Voltage: 5V
Power requirement: 2-2.5A

The daily score of one of these thingies will be about as great as the total of your combined CPU/GPU fleet.
The same output can be reached by using 2 to 3 Bi-Fury sticks, which are now dumped by the miners -at least over here.
If you have 10 PCs and stick one bi-fury in each you may reach 50M a day on BU alone -and that's beside the 10M for your original projects that you can still run on them.

[Nflight]

Thanks for the links there Dirk, If i had some cash maybe I would. But right now the Bitcoin Utopia realm os over for me. Seems the sgminer.exe that runs in the background is now considered a Trojan horse and my anti-virus won't let me exclude this from the permit-table operating equipment. Rats

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

I have found a link from Berkley which will not open at this time, may be too many people reading the site! Who knows...

The Link (https://boinc.berkeley.edu/trac/wiki/ClientAppConfig) is here: But it was here that I was looking for aid from App_config.xml files from the internet.

I went digging to optimize the GPU once everyone finds the niche to get those pesky GPu's working. The LINK (http://www.dunadd.co.uk/seti/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2238) is here; Seems the person at the Scottish BOINC team found a niche accelerator in his attempt to secure quicker and more efficient means to push the output of the GPU he owns. This looks promising will take a look after i return from my meeting this morning and reply with my findings.

Nflight, sorry this optimisation only works on Einstein due to the unique way it works. Bitcoin has extremely low cpu usage to feed the GPU so you would simply be wasting cores. Further due to a bug / not full development of the GPU app it works on time not Flops so effectively every GPU regardless of power gets payed the same credits.

[Dirk Broer]

I managed to score a 2nd hand 333 MH/s USB block erupter for a mere 5 Euro's, I'll let you guys know how it works when it arrives.

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

Dirk,
Amazon have rockbox R-miner 32 GH/s new from Germany for @ 70 - 80 euro. 100 times the power. Also Butterflylabs little single 30 GH/s ASIC miners are 70 - 90 euro 2nd hand on E-bay. I have a few antminer U2's and bit and bi furies as well. The block eruptor is the lowest power ASIC you can get and is obsolete, the U2 antminer is really a minimum. If you have any problems getting it to work though give me a PM at TSBT.
Alez

[Dirk Broer]

I am satisfied with anything that prevents me from dropping in the ranks while crunching all-out.
So far the block-erupter gets me around as much credits a day as its hashing speed (meaning a single stick of 333 kH/s gives you around 333,000 credits a day).

[Nflight]

Hello Team, About BU, i'm not using any kind of app_file, pretty much plug an play except for the driver, i have 1 R-BOX can get 30,000,000+ a day, plus i have 2 antminer U2 can get up to 3,000,000 a day with these. R-Boxes can be found Amazon for 60.00, free shipping and don't forget a 12V/6 Amp power supply. I hope this helps. Rick H
Some how I missed your post MiHost - BUt thanks for the link (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=rockbox+r+miner+amazon.com) to these small and powerful devices, currently looking at all the different ways to go after Asic's mining. I would like to get back to crunching BitCoin Utopia and this looks to be the way!!! I am thinking about purchasing one or two of these units.

I do have a serious question though. There are no pictures beyond what is supplied on Amazon; do they plug into your computer or are they stand alone systems? :blob3:

I found pictures that show everything: LINK (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71kvjIiKzyL._SL1500_.jpg)

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

Hey guys,
Hope you don't mind if I stop off with you guys for a little while on my way back to TSBT after doing a bit of crunching for my old team of Ireland.
Alez

[Dirk Broer]

Well, it is only a few days till the 'International talk like a pirate day (http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html)', so welcome pirate! I'd say

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RJUo5MDDmA8

[Dirk Broer]

I am satisfied with anything that prevents me from dropping in the ranks while crunching all-out.
So far the block-erupter gets me around as much credits a day as its hashing speed (meaning a single stick of 333 kH/s gives you around 333,000 credits a day).

Meaning a 11 mH/s Nano Fury USB miner ought to bring you up to 11 million credits a day, per usb stick.....(a conservative guestimate as the nano is basically six USB antminers (Ã* 1.6-2.2 gH/s) on one stick).

[scole of TSBT]

If AMD Users doesn't mind another guest cruncher, I'll stop in, after TSBT get's back in the #1 UK spot, for a day or two. Not trying to upset the apple cart. Just want to make good on the offer my team mate had passed along while I was trying to hide some credits.

[Dirk Broer]

Looks like the pirate is already gone before the International Talk Like a Pirate Day has even started!
(coming Friday the 19th, Get ye some loot ye landlubber. Happy talk like a pirate day 2014 ye scurvy dog. Thanks for crunching some of our information stuff. Now, walk the plank! -just to quote the comment with an appropriate POGS trophy)
I hope Scole still can drop a few million BU credits into our account.

[Nflight]

Thanks Scole for the offer... :blob3:

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

We have been recalled ( or ordered :icon_mrgreen: ) back to TSBT to nip past UBT before friday, so it will be a hearty Yarr !!! to them as we sail past. Both of us will come back here after that for a few days to make good on our promise. Tis a hectic life all this running round pillaging and Yarring :icon_lol:

[Dirk Broer]

If the "Yes" camp wins today you definitely want to be ahead of UBT before friday!
If the "No" camp wins today you definitely want to piss them off as well....

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

TSBT seems to be mainly in the NO camp. We should be ahead of UBT in the next hour or so :icon_mrgreen: It should be a NO, we're not leaving and NO you can't be ahead of us in Boinc :icon_mrgreen: Fingers crossed.
Unsure about the two of us contributing a few million .... not sure we can throttle our output that much :icon_razz:

[Dirk Broer]

You're about 3 billion ahead (http://boincstats.com/en/stats/144/team/compare/0/0/0?id%5B%5D=65&id%5B%5D=101) of the UBT (which would be a safe margin in any other project than BU):
The Scottish Boinc Team 29,726,070,390
UK BOINC Team 23,691,890,937

[scole of TSBT]

Those are just the BU project totals. For BOINC combined, we're only about 50 million ahead. Still a little close. We should gain about 500 million per day on them. In a couple days, we should be far enough ahead to sneak over here for a day.

[scole of TSBT]

TSBT has a comfortable lead on UBT. Let's see if we can help AMD Users a little. http://yoursmiles.org/hsmile/pirates/t3809.gif (http://yoursmiles.org/h-pirates.php)

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

Alright, missed pirate day but I'm here to. Time for the numbers to get crazy :)

[Dirk Broer]

;78388']Alright, missed pirate day but I'm here to. Time for the numbers to get crazy :)http://www.boincatpoland.org/smf/Smileys/pirate/pirateparty.gif

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

Yarr !! Ok Dirk, thats 24 hrs and more than 1 Billion credits. How much are you guys comfortable with ? We don't want to overstay our welcome and skew your team statistics too much .... unless you guys want us to :icon_twisted:

[Dirk Broer]

Yar! It looks like you and youfello pirate alredy ported! Scole be aft t' T' Scottish BOINC team and you have gone t' t' neighbourin' crunchin' state o' Anguilla (as seen from me crunchin' country t' british virgin islands)
http://www.savagechickens.com/images/chickenarryarhar.jpghttp://www.savagechickens.com/images/chickenpiratetext.jpghttp://www.savagechickens.com/images/chickenpiratehar.jpg

[AMDave]

Oh yeah. That was definitely cool. :icon_cool:
I'd give you a high-five but I might spill me ale ;)

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

Don't be going spilling yer grog mate :shocked: Pirates have walked the plank for less .....

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

Dropped off some more credit. Time to nip off home as TSBT is going to push for top 10. Once we make it, or you guys are under threat, then , if you guys want, I will be back to help out some more. Happy crunching. Dirk, don't be a stranger. You know where we are :icon_wink:

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

Look's like you should be past Russia soon to take #28 :icon_mrgreen:

[Dirk Broer]

;78457']Look's like you should be past Russia soon to take #28 :icon_mrgreen:

Hi Alez! That miner hardware sure beats everything! My 5 euro block erupter already brought me 13 million credits. Time for a 2.2 to 5 Gh/s bitfury stick, saw them for 20 euro's...
You must be able to push our BU total over 10 Billion tomorrow (Tuesday), our team's first for that mark.

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

I can push you guys over that mark as long as I am not stepping on anybodies toes by doing so. Take a look at the rockminer R boxes ( either 32GH/s or 100GH/s ) Far more bang for your buck at not a massively increase in price. I had some 5GH/s bitfurys which I have since sold on. If you get one or more I would recommend that you get a usb fan or put then in the airflow of something else as even at stock speed they get hot ( painful to the touch hot )

[Dirk Broer]

I'm rather impressed by the low energy requirements of the USB-miners, as my power bill is usually 400% of that of my neighbours.
The USB thingies can be stuck in any BOINC device and take away the need for 150 Watt+ GPUs. Now for USB ASICs that can do other projects....

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

Don't think we will ever see a BOINC project specific ASIC. Too expensive for a project to design and manufacture. However an app that runs on a FPGA device , that is more than possible. If a project were to take the plunge and develop then you know there are some of us that are dumb enough to buy FGPA's to run it :icon_twisted:

[Dirk Broer]

I think it will be the other way around: some volunteer will develop an FPGA application for a project other than BU (and will kick the s**t out the scores for that project, and will have a LOT of explaining to do -e.g.: no, he is not cheating, etc.)

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

It is the nature of the beast. Mostly everyone claims it's all about the science, but hell, we're human it's about the points and the positions, anything less is lying to ourselves. By the way that's your team benchmark achieved. Congratulations. You'll also move up another 2 places on the leader board by the morning, maybe more ...

[vaughan]

I have 3 hex-fury's and agree that get very hot. Cost me about 100 UK Pounds each. They are amazing point scorers. The whole BOINC-wide points system is now totally dominated (ruined? / controversial) by Bitcoin Utopia. But I agree with Alez its all about the points and the ranks.

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

I'm going to head home again soon guys, By then you should be up a few more places in the ranks. As before, will pop back over for a bit or will come back if you guys are under threat. Dirk knows where to find me and scole if you need. Catch you all on the next competition :icon_mrgreen: As always, been a pleasure hanging out with your team.

[Dirk Broer]

Thanks for the effort! I believe ASICS are the future for Distributed Computing. It would be nice to be able to choose between more projects,
but the campaigns set up by BU (there are two more coming, one to support BOINCStats) do more for the advance of science than e.g. the two Almere projects do.

[alez [ TSBT Pirate ]]

There are quite a few more projects than since the last post. Love it or hate it, I agree that BU providing support for milkyway, Seti, the woodward effect etc has far more practical value than a lot of projects that are deemed acceptable or ' real' science. Been a little while since I have been around with you guys and the teams around you seem to be getting external boosts so if you don't mind will hang out for a day or two .
Alez